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Chuck said
Those are some good pictures of the first 2 WRACO failed primers. Luckily Winchester had Gardner backing him up.
The one cartridge is an obvious Milbank primed cartridge. The other I don’t believe is a O.F. Winchester No.1 (Design) Primed cartridge, as the case is head stamped. My understanding is that Winchester didn’t start applying head stamps until 1884-85. So how would you tell whether this the early 1874 OFW primer or the later 1878 Gardner primer without disassembly?
Anthony said
I remember that Dan Shuey, said that he held both of the only known, Milbank Primed Cartridges. Interesting, as The above cartridge has all of those prominent Cartridge collectors, verifying it, and the on top of that, Dan Shuey!
Dan told me he got to look at the Paper patched 44wcf while it was still in the Bill Wooden collection in the 1980s. While it is believed to be the only remaining one in existence. I do wonder how many were possibly made or sold by WRACo.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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Maverick said
Chuck said
Those are some good pictures of the first 2 WRACO failed primers. Luckily Winchester had Gardner backing him up.
The one cartridge is an obvious Milbank primed cartridge. The other I don’t believe is a O.F. Winchester No.1 (Design) Primed cartridge, as the case is head stamped. My understanding is that Winchester didn’t start applying head stamps until 1884-85. So how would you tell whether this the early 1874 OFW primer or the later 1878 Gardner primer without disassembly?
Anthony said
I remember that Dan Shuey, said that he held both of the only known, Milbank Primed Cartridges. Interesting, as The above cartridge has all of those prominent Cartridge collectors, verifying it, and the on top of that, Dan Shuey!
Dan told me he got to look at the Paper patched 44wcf while it was still in the Bill Wooden collection in the 1980s. While it is believed to be the only remaining one in existence. I do wonder how many were possibly made or sold by WRACo.
Sincerely,
Maverick
The headstamped WRACo will have to be a 78 Gardner primer. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gI3OOeKkDO-k06yJ-3eFLZZ6aBu7-dor1AWXTI2PReY/edit?gid=1905899731#gid=1905899731
Yeap, I wish we had that information about how many Milbank Primed cartridges escaped out into circulation. 
Maverick said
The one cartridge is an obvious Milbank primed cartridge. The other I don’t believe is a O.F. Winchester No.1 (Design) Primed cartridge, as the case is head stamped. My understanding is that Winchester didn’t start applying head stamps until 1884-85. So how would you tell whether this the early 1874 OFW primer or the later 1878 Gardner primer without disassembly?
Maverick,
You are absolutely correct! I put the two next to each other for picture comparison, only!
Sorry for the confusion, as that Cartridge, IMO, is an early cartridge, but not an 1870 Cartridge, as it’s from a, second version of the, 3rd box time period.
According to Giles and Shuey, most likely from the 1880’s. As the first version, of the third box had no head stamp, and this head stamp, was presumably from one of the first head stamped boxes of the 1880’s into the 1890’s.
Chuck said
Those are some good pictures of the first 2 WRACO failed primers.
To reiterate, only the Milbank primed cartridge was the failed cartridge. The second cartridge in the picture was for comparison only.
Anthony
Bryan Austin said
Yeap, I wish we had that information about how many Milbank Primed cartridges escaped out into circulation.
Bryan,
I have had that thought on more than one occasion.
With all the confusion, for Winchester to get the proper primed cartridges, up and performing properly, I’m sure that Oliver had his hands full with his own work, and the recruiting of others, concerning the primers, as it delaying his model 1873, into 1874, and with all the patent information provided earlier, from you and others, we can try to assume, possibly a fair amount we’re produced, but what does my statement mean? “Fair Amount”, as with the only two known cartridges, and what we’ve heard a possibility of maybe three empty Milbank primed cartridge boxes showing the dimpled Milbank primer on the box, and not one box with any remaining cartridges inside, I go back to my, “Fair Amount”, statement, as only an assumption. The curious part of me wonders, as I read the book, that was suggested in an earlier post, about the, “Little Big Horn Battle”,(1876), and the few supposedly found Milbank Cartridges, and empty shell cases, that we’re recovered along with other various well known cartridges from other firearms, at the battle.
With the other Milbank primed cartridges, brought to light, on this forum, in various posts, it sure helps to try to understand, possibly how many 1873/1874, era .44 wcf cartridges we’re developed, or supposedly anyways. 
Anthony
Anthony said
“Fair Amount”, as with the only two known cartridges, and what we’ve heard a possibility of maybe three empty Milbank primed cartridge boxes showing the dimpled Milbank primer on the box, and not one box with any remaining cartridges inside, I go back to my, “Fair Amount”, statement, as only an assumption.
I honestly don’t believe it was a fair amount. In my opinion it may have been down to one crate’s worth actual Milbank primed ammo or even a couple of boxes. OFW’s No.1 Primer patent was applied for on November 6th, 1873. How many boxes of ammo would have been supplied to you when you purchased a brand new rifle? One or two boxes? Would an individual purchased a crate’s worth of ammo? Could they afforded to do so? How many crates of ammo would the factory had supplied to their retail outlet from which the new model firearm was purchased to anticipate future sales?
I wholeheartedly believe that they would have immediately started producing/using/supplying OFW’s No.1 primer in their ammunition and not have waited around until July 1874 to hear back from the patent office. Only two Model 1873s left the factory before Nov. 6th, Serial #2 was sold from the warehouse on September 26th, 1873 and Serial #3 on October 25th, 1873. Everything else was sold from the warehouse after Nov. 6th.
Now if you believe that they waited around until July 14th, 1874 to start selling their 44WCF with OFW No.1 primer, then at the most they would have produced 9 months worth of Milbank primed ammo for the 2,000 or so Model 1873s made in this timeframe. I would think that if that was the case their would be more examples of Milbank primed 44WCF ammo out there in the world. And not merely the two known examples from a former Winchester Employee who was head of the cartridge department.
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Bryan Austin said
Primer Wars at it’s peak!
I agree Bryan.
Maverick said
Anthony said
“Fair Amount”, as with the only two known cartridges, and what we’ve heard a possibility of maybe three empty Milbank primed cartridge boxes showing the dimpled Milbank primer on the box, and not one box with any remaining cartridges inside, I go back to my, “Fair Amount”, statement, as only an assumption.
I honestly don’t believe it was a fair amount. In my opinion it may have been down to one crate’s worth actual Milbank primed ammo or even a couple of boxes. OFW’s No.1 Primer patent was applied for on November 6th, 1873. How many boxes of ammo would have been supplied to you when you purchased a brand new rifle? One or two boxes? Would an individual purchased a crate’s worth of ammo? Could they afforded to do so? How many crates of ammo would the factory had supplied to their retail outlet from which the new model firearm was purchased to anticipate future sales?
I wholeheartedly believe that they would have immediately started producing/using/supplying OFW’s No.1 primer in their ammunition and not have waited around until July 1874 to hear back from the patent office. Only two Model 1873s left the factory before Nov. 6th, Serial #2 was sold from the warehouse on September 26th, 1873 and Serial #3 on October 25th, 1873. Everything else was sold from the warehouse after Nov. 6th.
Now if you believe that they waited around until July 14th, 1874 to start selling their 44WCF with OFW No.1 primer, then at the most they would have produced 9 months worth of Milbank primed ammo for the 2,000 or so Model 1873s made in this timeframe. I would think that if that was the case their would be more examples of Milbank primed 44WCF ammo out there in the world. And not merely the two known examples from a former Winchester Employee who was head of the cartridge department.
Maverick,
Some very good points made here. You make a lot of sense on the matter, as far as I’m concerned. Maybe my statement, “fair amount”, was over stated!
Interesting, on the number of other Milbank primed cartridges that have shown up, but he did apply for many patents on primers, and breech/receiver of firearms.
It goes back to what Bryan Austin said, “Primer Wars at it’s Peak”! A lot was going on back then for dominance, and as history shows, Oliver Winchester didn’t give up and pursued his business challenge.
Anthony
1873man said
Here is a picture of my Winchester Patent 44-40 box that I showed Chuck.Bob
This is the very hard to find, 2nd issued Box that Bob, was so kind to share with us. Like Maverick stated, the earlier .44 caliber cartridges, didn’t have Head Stamps, but had the grease groove, in the case. (ca.1874-1876), Giles & Shuey Book. A later version,(ca. 1876-1877).
Once again, the Milbank primed, paper patched cartridge. No way of knowing, exactly when mfg. Early 1870’s, as the, “primer wars”, we’re in full swing, and the evolution of the infamous .44 wcf.(.44-40), cartridge was born.
Anthony
Notice how flat the primers are. The later Gardner’s are more dome shaped.
just to add…
Until I can see the anvil on one of those “flat” primers…I can not even begin to guess which patent it was manufactured is under. We can certainly expect O.F.’s. The patents themselves did not cover the primer cup since the cups were not any improvement over an existing cup patent (unlike Milbanks’s), just the anvil type design. Theoretically they can be very early O. F. Winchester patented primers of which would have been quickly changed to ovel or domed cups. Either way, they are certainly not the 78′ Gardner patented primers.
I purchased an unheadstamped “raised” head a while back knowing it was probably a very early handload….which it was. The reason was because it had a domed primer cup rather than a flat primer cup. Marked “E. Remington”, by the collector, it more than likely is not. If it is, there is more data collectors are not sharing with us. The primer used in the handload was a 78′ Gardner, thus an early handload sometime after 1878.
Again I can not post photos here, and links to them on the 44-40.org website do not work….but…it is in the cartridge component spreadsheet I keep posting here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17JSyGIFLPmVfSbVqgjl5__a764mAZNS8aTO_VoEUhSs/edit?gid=1905899731#gid=1905899731
Also, here is a quick reference I made a while back for the primers used by the different 44-40 cartridge manufactures.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U-313e6xkMrETKwvO9SmH_QhIhlIFjrKvDPo99d0AlE/edit?tab=t.0
What caliber is the sectioned base of?
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Any other information? Dimensions? Pictures of it?
I’m assuming that’s all you’ve got, otherwise you would have posted more, and not just teased us with the lone picture of the, “Milbank Primer”, sectioned shell!
I was even trying to think of the primers dimension across, and guessing at the base of the cartridge, maybe trying to guess closely on it!
Anthony
Here is a picture that was sent to me. The file size is 1.1 mb but it will be reduced when I post it . This is not some picture copied from the internet. I do not know who took it.
Oh okay, referring to the Milbank primer. I was wondering what the cartridge was.
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