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Winchester's 44/100...
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January 25, 2020 - 2:24 pm
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… that would become the 44 WCF.

I don’t know much about this cartridge as it was first introduced with the Milbank Primer system.

Also, I don’t post here much because I do not own a Winchester rifle chambered for the 44-40. I have a 59′ 94′ 30-30 and a 97′ shotgun and a few modern Winchester shotguns but that’s all.

 

Taken from another topic…

win4575 said
The 1873 or 1874 catalog did not list the model 1873, because of the problems they were having with the Milbank primed .44WCF ammunition.  As far as I can tell the first model 1873’s were shipped on order number 577 in March of 1873.  Only a handful were shipped at that time.  As strange as it may sound, Winchester model 1873 serial #1 was not shipped until October of 1874.  It was a musket, with 30″ barrel.  The 1873 model was doomed from the get go, with unreliable ammunition.  Once that problem was fixed, this model hit the marked in large numbers, in late 1874.  

Thus I figured I would make this topic and see what other information is out there.

As we all know the Winchester 73′ was Winchester’s first introduction of the center fire cartridge in their rifles. As Win4575 stated above, the 73′ was troubled early because of the Milbank primer system. Below is the information I have which is nearly nothing. If anyone would like to add to this, I would like to use your information to update the Milbank primer information on the 44-40 website.

 

boxImage Enlarger

 

1873
 

The 44 Winchester cartridge is born!

 
 Milbank PrimedImage Enlarger

This photo, an x-ray, shows a lead flat nose bullet that does not appear to have an exposed lube groove. The bullet is only seated about .21″. The Milbank primer is evident sticking up from the pocket. The “Dimple” is evident.

 

PRIMERS – I am not certain as to the history of the Milbank Primer design but it was patented, Pat. #103,641…May, 31, 1870. During the early development of the Winchester 73′ cartridge, the Milbank primer design was used. It appears that this primer design was flawed and troublesome but I lack details. The primer was developed with a dimple in it and it much resembled a spent cartridge when in fact they were not fired. Several 73′ cartridge cases recovered from early Indian battle sites such as Bighorn are reported as being such primed cases. Seems odd since those cartridges were short lived and may not have even sold in quantities. This cartridge with the new primer was very short lived and it has been said that some of the earliest deliveries of the 73′ were delayed until the boxer primer system was released.

 

44-40 case artifacts excavated at the Little Bighorn battlefield between 1984-2004 are indicated to be these very early and rare Milbank primed cases. However, Scott notes that they MAY be Milbank or Boxer primed cases. He states…”These brass cases are centerfire and were primed with the Winchester-Milbank or Boxer type primers.” ~Scott, 2006 Archaeological Mitigation Report, page 12)

I finally found a Milbank design cartridge and have written permission by the owner to share. This is believed to be an early Prototype. ​

Item 203 – RARE and early, this Winchester prototype .44 W.C.F. has a copper Milbank primer, {Pat. #103,641 May, 31, 1870,} it has a 1.177” / 29.91mm long brass case and a flat nose lead bullet. If side-by-side, an M-66 .44 Henry long case mouth would end at the shoulder of this. So this case was most likely too short to support the bullet and would have then been lengthened into the production .44 W.C.F. Weighing 319.4 gr., with uneven toning and oxidization, it is in good condition. estimate- $4,000-$5,000

artifactImage Enlarger

A 44 WCF artifact found on the Little Bighorn Battlefields, 1984 “Archaeological Perspectives of the Battle of Little Bighorn”…page 155 ~Scott. This is obviously a spent cartridge and it may or may not be a Milbank primed case.

 

caseImage Enlarger

Milbank primeder

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Milbank Unfired Primer, hard to tell when one was fired are not.

 

my cartridgeImage Enlarger

My attempt at recreating the Milbank Primed case regarding the 1.177″ case length rather than today’s 1.300″.

Accuracy was an absolute flop thus further testing was halted.

This information can be found here about midway the page. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/

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January 25, 2020 - 7:24 pm
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Very interesting & impressive website!  I see that much of the experimental work, & some of the artifacts, were attributed to the late & greatly lamented John Kort–there’ll never be another historic cartridge investigator like him, I don’t believe. 

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January 25, 2020 - 7:36 pm
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clarence said
Very interesting & impressive website!  I see that much of the experimental work, & some of the artifacts, were attributed to the late & greatly lamented John Kort–there’ll never be another historic cartridge investigator like him, I don’t believe.   

Thank you and yes, John was my inspiration when I began my research. We corresponded a lot and although I did not get a chance to meet him or shoot with him, I did get the opportunity to test some ballistics he requested. 

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January 25, 2020 - 9:52 pm
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When I was having trouble with a 44-40 Ballard, John sent me the best, most perfect, & most accurate cast bullets I’ve ever used.  I wish I’d accepted another offer he made me, 22LR loaded by him with BP.  But I didn’t want the hassle of cleaning after shooting them, so I declined; now I wish I’d taken just a few as a keepsake of him & his unfailing generosity.

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February 8, 2020 - 2:17 pm
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clarence said
When I was having trouble with a 44-40 Ballard, John sent me the best, most perfect, & most accurate cast bullets I’ve ever used.  I wish I’d accepted another offer he made me, 22LR loaded by him with BP.  But I didn’t want the hassle of cleaning after shooting them, so I declined; now I wish I’d taken just a few as a keepsake of him & his unfailing generosity.  

I wish I had been able to learn to cast from him. Here is some more information on some of his work.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort

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February 8, 2020 - 3:51 pm
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Thanks SavvyJack for posting the website link.  Its been enjoyable to read some new (to me) materials. 

Chris

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February 8, 2020 - 10:47 pm
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In hitting that figure of a man at 500 yds, with 26 g. BP, the Henry bullet must have had the trajectory of a mortar round. 

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February 9, 2020 - 12:07 am
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clarence said
In hitting that figure of a man at 500 yds, with 26 g. BP, the Henry bullet must have had the trajectory of a mortar round.   

And a velocity of 200 fps. Kind of reminds me of the scene in Lonesome Dove when Gus pops the bandito/ comanchero in the breadbasket from a long way off with his Henry

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February 9, 2020 - 6:22 pm
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Classic scene, too, Dave!!!

James

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February 9, 2020 - 7:18 pm
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jwm94 said
Classic scene, too, Dave!!!

James  

No!  Not with that brass-tube scope, which makes it as “modern” as seeing telephone poles in the background!  None of the early scope makers used brass.

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February 9, 2020 - 8:10 pm
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Mine is good enough…I like it

 

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February 9, 2020 - 9:05 pm
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clarence said

No!  Not with that brass-tube scope, which makes it as “modern” as seeing telephone poles in the background!  None of the early scope makers used brass.  

PIcky, picky, picky 🙂

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February 9, 2020 - 9:31 pm
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This is an interesting article. 

https://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_hen_00.shtml

 

Malcolm scopes are reproduced by a company in the LA area.  These do have a couple of brass parts though.  I think you have to remove the dust cover when using their mount on a 73.

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February 9, 2020 - 9:46 pm
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Chuck said
This is an interesting article. 

https://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_hen_00.shtml

 

Malcolm scopes are reproduced by a company in the LA area.  These do have a couple of brass parts though.  I think you have to remove the dust cover when using their mount on a 73.  

Several things interest me about the Henry

1. 200+ yard shots at the Battle of the Little Big Horn by both Henry’s and Winchester 73’s – https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/44-wcf-history-and-indian-battlefield-artifacts/little-bighorn

2. Henry 1866 Switzerland Trials @ 1,000 paces – https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/44-wcf-history-and-indian-battlefield-artifacts/1866-switzerland-trials

John Kort…his name is always popping up….replicated the Henery’s ballisitcs at 300 paces but using a modern replica with reduced 44-40 loads.

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February 9, 2020 - 10:51 pm
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Chuck said 

 

Malcolm scopes are reproduced by a company in the LA area.  These do have a couple of brass parts though. 

That’s the Hi-Lux Optical Co.–don’t know how they get away with expropriating the Malcolm name, but if there’s no Malcolm descendant to protest (or demand a licensing fee), they obviously can.  But they don’t repro Malcolm mounts, which were the most distinctive feature of Malcolm scopes; their mounts copy the cheapest Lyman mounts originally provided for the 438 model scope. 

Early Malcolm eyepieces were nickel-plated brass, but these were discontinued in the ’90s.

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February 10, 2020 - 12:14 am
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The Hi-Lux Scopes and HL Malcolm is all I can afford and I am certainly glad we got what we got. The mounting system is a bit to be desired but I was able to get it to work. My Malcolm scope makes a 100 yard target look as big as a 25 yard target without the scope!

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February 10, 2020 - 12:28 am
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SavvyJack said
The Hi-Lux Scopes and HL Malcolm is all I can afford and I am certainly glad we got what we got.

They are a good value, definitely.  But have you seen these? https://montanavintagearms.com/product/winchester-scopes/winchester-scope-no1-mount/

Yes, they’re a good bit more expensive, but quality is outstanding.  Period-correct, too, for late production ’73s.  It would have been possible to order a ’73 with a factory-mounted Winchester scope!  Bizarre, but possible.

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February 10, 2020 - 12:58 am
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Those are very nice. I think I have the Malcolm 3x and I got it cheap, like $250 newsed never mounted.
I would love to have one of those Montana Scopes!!!!!

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February 10, 2020 - 8:24 pm
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Here is a picture of the Malcolm mount for a 73.  All that is needed is the device and to remove 1 screw. 

 

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February 11, 2020 - 3:24 am
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oh nice!!!

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