Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
Winchester Model 56/57 Research Survey
September 2, 2016
11:21 am
Avatar
FrioTx
Guests

JWA,

In your opinion do you think the Western front sight on my 56 is from the factory ? Was it a special order? Was that sight offered on other Winchesters?

September 2, 2016
3:00 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

FrioTx said
JWA,

In your opinion do you think the Western front sight on my 56 is from the factory ? Was it a special order? Was that sight offered on other Winchesters?  

Those are good questions. 

The Western patent front globe sight predates the Lyman 17 which was offered by Winchester commencing with the 1929 catalog as their preferred front globe sight for .22 rimfire rifles.  The Western Gunsight Co. was founded in 1909 by John Redfield but in the late 1920's the Western Cartridge Co. did not like the similarity of name to theirs so he renamed it the "Redfield Gunsight Co".  I don't know exactly when in the late 20's that change occurred but it is not outside the realm for a 1927 or 1928 Redfield globe sight to still be marked as "Western". 

So, it is certainly possible that the Western patent globe sight is original to your rifle but unfortunately there is no way to verify it for certain.  The best I can offer is that it is period correct to the original manufacture date of your rifle and it is a good height match for the Lyman 42W rear receiver sight.  Perhaps someone else can chime in with more information.

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

September 2, 2016
4:08 pm
Avatar
FrioTx
Guests

Thank you. All great information very interesting. What about the filler dovetail which replaces the standard 40A barrel rear sight on my rifle? All the barrels were machined the same? Ready for sights? Then someone places an order for a 56 without need of a 40A standard sight, so Winchester fills the dovetail with an engraved plug. Is that how it happens? Seems like if the standard sight was going to be in the way the factory would have not put it on, instead of someone later (original owner lets say) having it removed and filled. 

September 2, 2016
6:03 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

FrioTx said
Thank you. All great information very interesting. What about the filler dovetail which replaces the standard 40A barrel rear sight on my rifle? All the barrels were machined the same? Ready for sights? Then someone places an order for a 56 without need of a 40A standard sight, so Winchester fills the dovetail with an engraved plug. Is that how it happens? Seems like if the standard sight was going to be in the way the factory would have not put it on, instead of someone later (original owner lets say) having it removed and filled.   

Yes, all of the 56 barrels were machined the same and had the barrel rear sight dovetail on all of the Lyman 42W equipped models I have seen.  If a model 56 was provided with the Lyman 42W rear sight instead of the standard 40A Winchester simply installed a blank in the rear sight dovetail.  The 42W was an offered upgrade for the Model 56 (all of them were already D&T'd for it) but very few were sold as the small aperture was not as handy on a sporting rifle as the 40A open sight and the cost was higher.

Now, having said that, Winchester made their own dovetail sight blanks (which were all unmarked).  It is unlikely they would have used an aftermarket sight blank such as yours so I would assume your sight blank is not original to the rifle.  Is your 42W sight marked "42W" or is it an unmarked 42W?  In general, most of the Lyman sights supplied by Winchester as factory equipment on the 56 were unmarked and the Lyman aftermarket sights were marked "42W" to indicate the model and application. 

Hope that helps.

Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

September 2, 2016
6:20 pm
Avatar
FrioTx
Guests

My 42w rear sight is simply marked Lyman. The sight blank is unmarked except for the engraved Bighorn Sheep's Head . Which always seemed a little inappropriate for a 22. So, maybe that's the telltale sign of an after market? It's all fitted really nice however. Perhaps at some shop in Denver all they had was  a sight blank that was meant for a larger caliber rifle? Very interesting, I'm just happy to have had this little rifle all these years and grateful for all the information.

 Thanks again!

September 2, 2016
6:41 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Since it is unmarked (no 42W) it indicates it could possibly be original to the rifle or was removed from another 56 or 57.  The bluing process used on the Winchester rear sight dovetail blanks during that era tended to flake off and look ugly.  I suppose it is possible that the rear blank was swapped to improve the look of the rifle, possibly to improve it's shelf-appeal and resale value when sold at the Denver shop although we will probably never know.

The Model 56 is one of my all time favorite Winchester sporting rifles.  It is well machined and finished, lightweight, handy and points as easily as a Luger.  The Schnabel forend gives it an elegant curving grace that really sets it apart from other models.  You have an excellent heirloom to pass down.

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

September 24, 2016
7:42 pm
Avatar
PaCoTx
Guests

model 56 

22 lr

sn18044

 

been in my family since new.

September 24, 2016
10:46 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

PaCoTx said
model 56 
22 lr
 sn18044
  
been in my family since new.  

Thank you Sir!

I did not have that one in the survey.

Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

October 14, 2016
3:31 pm
Avatar
Dennydef
Guests

I have the following that's been in the family since new:

Model 56 Winchester Long R

SN 7667

Stainless Steel

Patent Dates: Nov. 25, 1919, Feb 17, 1920, Mar. 30, 1920, Mar, 27, 1923

Question:  This rifle is missing the bolt.Cry  Removed and lost to prevent someone from taking it out and shooting it. Can it be replaced?

Denny

October 14, 2016
10:12 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Dennydef said
I have the following that's been in the family since new:

Model 56 Winchester Long R

SN 7667

Stainless Steel

Patent Dates: Nov. 25, 1919, Feb 17, 1920, Mar. 30, 1920, Mar, 27, 1923

Question:  This rifle is missing the bolt.Cry  Removed and lost to prevent someone from taking it out and shooting it. Can it be replaced?

Denny  

 

Thank you Sir!

Congratulations, you have a great family heirloom, I have added yours to the survey.  The stainless steel barrel is fairly rare on the Model 56. 

The bolts are identical for the Model 56 and Model 57 so either will work in your rifle.  There were nearly 3 times as many Model 57's made and over a longer period so they are easier to find.  The bolts are available occasionally on eBay in the $100-$150 range.  The early model 69 bolt is very similar and may be used with some slight fitting/modification in a pinch but your heirloom deserves the correct part for the future generations.

Thanks for posting here.

Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

October 14, 2016
11:53 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1377
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

JWA said

Dennydef said
I have the following that's been in the family since new:

Model 56 Winchester Long R

SN 7667

Stainless Steel

Patent Dates: Nov. 25, 1919, Feb 17, 1920, Mar. 30, 1920, Mar, 27, 1923

Question:  This rifle is missing the bolt.Cry  Removed and lost to prevent someone from taking it out and shooting it. Can it be replaced?

Denny  

 

Thank you Sir!

Congratulations, you have a great family heirloom, I have added yours to the survey.  The stainless steel barrel is fairly rare on the Model 56. 

The bolts are identical for the Model 56 and Model 57 so either will work in your rifle.  There were nearly 3 times as many Model 57's made and over a longer period so they are easier to find.  The bolts are available occasionally on eBay in the $100-$150 range.  The early model 69 bolt is very similar and may be used with some slight fitting/modification in a pinch but your heirloom deserves the correct part for the future generations.

Thanks for posting here.

Regards,  

Add to that,  the fact that the bolts on the M56 and M57 were numbered to the rifle and that could pose a problem as they may have been hand fitted to an individual rifle.   Big Larry

October 15, 2016
3:26 pm
Avatar
Dennydef
Guests

Do you know if the Model 56 and 57 bolt also works in the Model 69?

Thanks for your expert help!

Denny

October 15, 2016
4:09 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Denny,

So there is no confusion, when we are talking about the "Model 69" we are referring to the early style produced from 1935 through 1938.  The subsequent Model 69A has a completely different bolt which is NOT interchangeable with the 56/57.

To answer your question, the 56/57 bolt will physically fit in the Model 69 however it will not work perfectly since the 56/57 bolt did not have a rebounding firing pin and most of the Model 69 bolts have the updated rebounding firing pin which required a different sear angle and sear height.  So, the bolts will fit and even possibly seem to function but it is not a safe combination since the sear to firing pin angles and heights will be mismatched and could easily cause the rifle to fire inadvertently.

As I mentioned, conversely, the 69 bolt can be used safely in the 56/57 with some slight modification, one of those modifications is to the firing pin sear catch angle to match the earlier sear angle on the 56/57.  While this is a relatively minor modification it is best performed by an experienced gunsmith to insure proper and safe function.  Again, your best course of action is to wait for the correct 56/57 bolt to come along.

I wouldn't worry too much about using a mis-numbered 56/57 bolt as almost all of them are interchangeable.  A simple check of the headspace, safety notch and a bump test are usually all that is required when installing a different bolt in a 56, 57 or 69.  I have never found a 56/57 bolt that failed headspace when swapped with another rifle but that doesn't mean you shouldn't check anyway.

In the meantime, keep searching for the matching number original bolt as it will significantly increase the value of your rifle and eliminate the hassle of finding a replacement.

Here is a photo to illustrate the difference in the bolt assemblies between the non-rebounding firing pin (Model 56/57 TOP) and rebounding firing pin (Model 69 BOTTOM).  By looking on the underside of the bolt you can see the notch cut for the rebounding firing pin.  This notch is what mandated the sear angle and height change from the Model 56/57 to the 69.

Image Enlarger

 

This view is the underside of a Model 56/57 bolt assembly showing the non-rebounding firing pin without the notch.  It also illustrates the rifle serial number etched onto the bolt body.

Image Enlarger

 

Here is the bolt comparison between the Model 56/57 (TOP) and early Model 69 (BOTTOM).  Note the longer down-turned bolt handle on the 69 and smaller firing pin tip diameter.

Image Enlarger

Image Enlarger

 

Here is a 57 bolt currently listed on eBay (for an exorbitant price) but viewing the photos will give you an idea of what you need.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Winchester-Model-57-Bolt-Assembly-/152240317100?hash=item23723ae2ac:g:B30AAOSwOyJX6xH3

 

Update: I just noticed this one for a 56/57 on Gunbroker for a reasonable price - http://www.gunbroker.com/item/584173019 You probably won't find one in decent condition much cheaper than that.

Hope that helps.

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

November 14, 2016
7:41 am
Avatar
Paul
Guests

I have the .22 short

serial# 4496

can you tell me when it was manufactured and approx value? 

Thanks

November 14, 2016
4:12 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 9529
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Paul,

Which specific model is it ? I suspect that it is a 1926 production rifle. Can you check the barrel date (requires taking the barreled action out of the stock) ?

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

November 14, 2016
6:02 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Paul said

I have the .22 short

serial# 4496

can you tell me when it was manufactured and approx value? 

Thanks  

I suspect yours is a Model 56 manufactured in 1926 and with a 1926 barrel date but visual confirmation would be great.  The 2 digit barrel date is located on the underside of the barrel in front of the receiver. 

The Model 56 in .22 short is one of the harder rifles to find.  Without seeing the condition of the rifle we can only give you a low/high value range.  Bert can give you the actual Redbook values by condition.  My estimate based on observing actual Model 56 rifles recently sold is $250 at the low end for a 10% gun with major issues such as a broken stock or drilled/tapped barrel up to about $3000 for an original, unmodified 98% specimen with the special order 42W rear sight.

Rebluing, added sling swivels, drilling/tapping for scope, stock refinishing, etc. all detract significantly from the overall value.  If you email pictures to us we can give you a much more defined estimate as value is directly related to originality and condition.

Thanks for contributing to the survey!

Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

November 16, 2016
3:44 pm
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 5
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Let me add my Model 56, #19758, short-only, with the stainless steel barrel.  My father received it as a gift in 1930, when he was 13.  He presented it to me in 1960, when I was 13.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Bellevance/DSC_0017_zpsa2241c3d.jpgImage Enlarger

 

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Bellevance/DSC_0016_zpsd6e1b874.jpgImage Enlarger

November 17, 2016
1:13 pm
Avatar
Location: 32000' +
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1237
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bellevance said
Let me add my Model 56, #19758, short-only, with the stainless steel barrel.  My father received it as a gift in 1930, when he was 13.  He presented it to me in 1960, when I was 13.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Bellevance/DSC_0017_zpsa2241c3d.jpgImage Enlarger

 

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Bellevance/DSC_0016_zpsd6e1b874.jpgImage Enlarger  

 

Hi Don,

I already have your very rare Model 56 in the survey since you provided me the information on Rimfire Central 5 or 6 years ago. 

For those that are unfamiliar with the Model 56, the .22 short chambering in the Model 56 is the least common configuration and, in addition to that, Bellevance's rifle is a late production with an original Winchester stainless steel barrel. 

The 56/57 survey currently has about 1.5% of the total production of the 56/57 logged and out of all those rifles only TWO are Model 56's in .22 short with stainless barrels. 

Thanks for posting the photos, they are a real treat!

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

November 17, 2016
4:14 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1377
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes, rare. Thanks for sharing.  Big Larry

December 28, 2016
2:40 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 273
Member Since:
November 17, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 Model 57 Target serial number 16046 with original blue. Unmarked filler block in the rear barrel dovetail, looks original to the gun with no marks or missed hits from installation. Lyman rear sight has Lyman only, no model number. The front sight is an early 17A Marked Lyman Reg US Pat., it is the 3/4" shorter variation with nice original luster blue. Some very light hammer marks near the right side dovetail make me question the originality of it, plus the gun is too early for it anyway? Quite nice and high condition gun.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: 28 gauge, dane62, tsillik
37 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 6695

Posts: 53981


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 903

Members: 8799

Moderators: 4

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 4029

twobit: 2484

TXGunNut: 2180

Maverick: 1469

Big Larry: 1377

JWA: 1237

clarence: 1196

Wincacher: 1180

Brad Dunbar: 1069

Chuck: 1054

Navigation