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Bryan Austin said
I was asking about this cut away cartridge!
Chuck said
Here is a picture that was sent to me. The file size is 1.1 mb but it will be reduced when I post it . This is not some picture copied from the internet. I do not know who took it.
Chuck,
I understand what you are talking about in reference to you’re post!
Look at the difference in the bases, with Chuck’s, being flat, and the cut away that Bryan posted, rounded, like the one I posted, which is rounded also!
Anthony
Ok, I getting myself confused. The only 2 know Milbank primed 44 WCF cartridges have been shown on the internet before. One is paper patched and the other is not.
How does the one I posted look compared to the only known one?
Chuck,
It looks to me like the one you posted, is the other one, which is not paper patched, naturally, and re confirming the two that are known. The one that I posted, and the one that you posted!
Anthony
1. The photo I posted is not a 44 wcf, just a reported Milbank primed case of some type. If it is indeed a Milbank primed case, note the case design (drawn rather than folded) and the side of the primer that has been ground away. This makes me think it is not a milbank primer….but if it is, then it is in a solid head case with a large primer pocket, and the Milbank primer that is tapered, rather than the Milbank primer that looks like a 22 rimfire case.
- Cartridge #1 – the cartridge that has been x-rayed
- Cartridge #2 – the paper patched cartridge somewhere in this topic
- Cartridge #3 – the last photo Chuck just shared
That is all I know as far as Milbank Primed 44 WCF cartridges.
Another thing to consider is the primer design and case designs it was used in.
Bryan,
Set me straight. Is it possible the one Chuck posted, is the one that was x-rayed?
Or are there three known cartridges, in .44 WCF, that are Milbank, primed?
Anthony
Anthony said
Bryan,Set me straight. Is it possible the one Chuck posted, is the one that was x-rayed?
Or are there three known cartridges, in .44 WCF, that are Milbank, primed?
Anthony
Absolutely, unless the owner knows better…
I’m going to try to find out more without making my contact mad at me. No promises. He is very hard to deal with.
Chuck, Based on what I’m seeing the cartridge you posted in my opinion is a Milbank primed Colt 45 cartridge. This is based on the profile of the bullet matching the 1875 Catalog, along with the case being straight walled. The 44 WCF has a slight neck to it (see diagram) and not straight walled, including the earliest Milbank primed cartridges.
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. I have no idea who owns or where the sectioned Milbank case comes from.
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Don’t think the 45 Colt ever used the Milbank primers.
In the photo you shared, I edit it a bit…
1. Looking at the distance between the primer rim and the cartridge case rim, the top cartridge is obviously a much larger caliber cartridge. Not a 45 Colt
2. The bottom cartridge is not a milbank primed cartridge…the bullet is being pushed out due to corrosion on the base of the bullet.
Bryan Austin said
Don’t think the 45 Colt ever used the Milbank primers.1. Looking at the distance between the primer rim and the cartridge case rim, the top cartridge is obviously a much larger caliber cartridge. Not a 45 Colt
https://www.oldammo.com/50_45Carb.JPG
Well then, my next vote is that it is a 50 Gov’t Carbine that is Milbank primed. Based on the shape of the bullet and the length of the case and it being straight walled. Or even a .58 Gov’t cartridge. Without knowing the dimensions or something to scale it off of, its a moot point. But I don’t see how its a 44WCF cartrige.
What evidence is there to suggest that there wasn’t a 45 Colt Milbank primed? It was being produced at the same time as the 44WCF.
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Maverick said
What evidence is there to suggest that there wasn’t a 45 Colt Milbank primed? It was being produced at the same time as the 44WCF.
None, but what “evidence” says it was?
All we can go by is what we have, hope something surfaces, and play process of elimination until then.
Again we look back at the manufactures…Winchester and UMC. Without digging for dates, these two manufactures dominated the primer patents at the time.
Early 45 Colt civilian cartridges by UMC used the Orcutt patented primers…they didn’t need Milbanks patent…a waste of money on an already inferior primer. Winchester did not have a centerfire patent and used the Milbank primer patent for the 44 WCF extremely brief, until Winchester patent primer in early 74′.
Even on the Cartridge Collection forum…there is not much there about Milbank primed cartridges.
Bryan Austin said
None, but what “evidence” says it was?
Still working on the hard evidence. There is a general statement in the February 1873 Catalog that alludes to the possibility. “Our center-fire Cartridges are made solid heads, and with the “Milbank” primer, the best yet introduced. We shall keep in stock all regular sizes of rim-fire cartridges. Special sizes and center-fire of all kinds promptly made to order at the lowest market rates.”
This page, by the way, is not included in the 1991 Armory Publications Bound Catalog Reprints.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
Bryan Austin said
None, but what “evidence” says it was?
Still working on the hard evidence. There is a general statement in the February 1873 Catalog that alludes to the possibility. “Our center-fire Cartridges are made solid heads, and with the “Milbank” primer, the best yet introduced. We shall keep in stock all regular sizes of rim-fire cartridges. Special sizes and center-fire of all kinds promptly made to order at the lowest market rates.”
Sincerely,
Maverick
THAT’S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!!! you da’man Mav!!
That is dated February 1873. This give us (my rookie self anyway) a good date reference…even for the 44 WCF. So by this date, Winchester was using Milbank’s primer patent exclusively for their centerfire cartridges for at least one year before switching to Winchester’s patented primer system.
1. For the 44 WCF, we already know it was very short lived, and very few…if at all any…44 WCF Milbank primed cartridges were shipped with the few rifles sold and shipped by December 1873.
2. For the 45 Colt, this certainly leaves much room to search and document examples.
3. All Center Fire cartridges were made of the SOLID HEAD design.
Maybe some of these High Dollar collectors have such classified information for 45 Colt Milbank primed examples.
I am going to be adding some photos here shortly from over at the collectors forum of some Milbank primed cartridges known today…maybe we can add to them over time.
Winchester made;
42 Russian and a .58 Musket
.
.
.
Not sure who made this one
.43 Spanish
.
.
.
Millbank primed 45-75 WCF. (no photo)
Winchester 1875 catalog lists the following cartridges:
38 Short
38 Long
38 Extra Long
40-50 Grs. (Sharps)
40-70 Grs. (Sharps)
41 Long
42 (Russian?)
43 (Spanish?)
44-60 Grs. (Sharps)
44-77 Grs. (Sharps)
44 S&W American
44 S&W Russian
Model 1873 Winchester (.44-40 WCF)
44 Long
Colt 44
Colt 45
45 Sporting (.45-50 Peabody)
Martini Henry (.45)
50 Pistol
Carbine (.50-45)
Musket (.50-70)
58 Carbine
58 (Musket)
58 Snider
For those that were made/offered in 1873 as well, I suppose any of them could have been made with the Milbank primer.
Also, here is a piece I wrote up about Winchester’s failed .45 caliber Repeating Rifle No. 78 by June 1873
Bryan,
A very well put together and informative article. As all of you’re work is.
Along with the primer wars in the early 1870’s and farther. The Milbank primer’s failure, slowing the beginning of the production of the Winchester model 1873, and the Gardner primer’s beginning in 1878, was it the Winchester primer patent, that was used, in the .44 WCF cartridge, after the failure of the Milbank primer, and before the Gardner, (Winchester employee), primer?
Anthony
Dan told me he got to look at the Paper patched 44wcf while it was still in the Bill Wooden collection in the 1980s. While it is believed to be the only remaining one in existence. I do wonder how many were possibly made or sold by WRACo.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Here is the Milbank primed cartridge, that Dan Shuey, told us about! Pictured with a couple Winchester 73’s.
This is the ONLY, .44 WCF, paper patched, Milbank cartridge known, as of today. Many prominent cartridge Collectors have owned this in their personal collection.
Anthony
One other item I wanted to try and clarify is exactly which Milbank Primer design did Winchester use?
1. Most examples that we see used the straight walled type (maybe a slight taper) that can be seen in most drawings. These were used in folded head cases, with an obvious protruding primer when viewed from inside the case.
2. Winchester’s cases were supposed to be of the solid head design, meaning they were made by “drawing” the brass in steps…thus the dome shaped primer pocket when viewed from inside the case. This dome would probably hide the primer, which should now be an obvious tapered design.
I also wrote up a small piece about the drawn cases vs the folded cases herehttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1zSUuQdsGKe-CjyuN-XJRyfQwK5Sjv3YHTYm-Jws8rvU/edit?tab=t.0
Could give some insight to the primer pocket/primer designs other than what may be seen on the patent drawings.
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