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Bryan Austin said
… that would become the 44 WCF.I don’t know much about this cartridge as it was first introduced with the Milbank Primer system.
Also, I don’t post here much because I do not own a Winchester rifle chambered for the 44-40. I have a 59′ 94′ 30-30 and a 97′ shotgun and a few modern Winchester shotguns but that’s all.
Taken from another topic…
win4575 said
The 1873 or 1874 catalog did not list the model 1873, because of the problems they were having with the Milbank primed .44WCF ammunition. As far as I can tell the first model 1873’s were shipped on order number 577 in March of 1873. Only a handful were shipped at that time. As strange as it may sound, Winchester model 1873 serial #1 was not shipped until October of 1874. It was a musket, with 30″ barrel. The 1873 model was doomed from the get go, with unreliable ammunition. Once that problem was fixed, this model hit the marked in large numbers, in late 1874.
Thus I figured I would make this topic and see what other information is out there.
As we all know the Winchester 73′ was Winchester’s first introduction of the center fire cartridge in their rifles. As Win4575 stated above, the 73′ was troubled early because of the Milbank primer system. Below is the information I have which is nearly nothing. If anyone would like to add to this, I would like to use your information to update the Milbank primer information on the 44-40 website.
The 44 Winchester cartridge is born!
This photo, an x-ray, shows a lead flat nose bullet that does not appear to have an exposed lube groove. The bullet is only seated about .21″. The Milbank primer is evident sticking up from the pocket. The “Dimple” is evident.
PRIMERS – I am not certain as to the history of the Milbank Primer design but it was patented, Pat. #103,641…May, 31, 1870. During the early development of the Winchester 73′ cartridge, the Milbank primer design was used. It appears that this primer design was flawed and troublesome but I lack details. The primer was developed with a dimple in it and it much resembled a spent cartridge when in fact they were not fired. Several 73′ cartridge cases recovered from early Indian battle sites such as Bighorn are reported as being such primed cases. Seems odd since those cartridges were short lived and may not have even sold in quantities. This cartridge with the new primer was very short lived and it has been said that some of the earliest deliveries of the 73′ were delayed until the boxer primer system was released.
44-40 case artifacts excavated at the Little Bighorn battlefield between 1984-2004 are indicated to be these very early and rare Milbank primed cases. However, Scott notes that they MAY be Milbank or Boxer primed cases. He states…”These brass cases are centerfire and were primed with the Winchester-Milbank or Boxer type primers.” ~Scott, 2006 Archaeological Mitigation Report, page 12)
I finally found a Milbank design cartridge and have written permission by the owner to share. This is believed to be an early Prototype.
Item 203 – RARE and early, this Winchester prototype .44 W.C.F. has a copper Milbank primer, {Pat. #103,641 May, 31, 1870,} it has a 1.177” / 29.91mm long brass case and a flat nose lead bullet. If side-by-side, an M-66 .44 Henry long case mouth would end at the shoulder of this. So this case was most likely too short to support the bullet and would have then been lengthened into the production .44 W.C.F. Weighing 319.4 gr., with uneven toning and oxidization, it is in good condition. estimate- $4,000-$5,000
A 44 WCF artifact found on the Little Bighorn Battlefields, 1984 “Archaeological Perspectives of the Battle of Little Bighorn”…page 155 ~Scott. This is obviously a spent cartridge and it may or may not be a Milbank primed case.
Milbank primeder
Milbank Unfired Primer, hard to tell when one was fired are not.
My attempt at recreating the Milbank Primed case regarding the 1.177″ case length rather than today’s 1.300″.
Accuracy was an absolute flop thus further testing was halted.
This information can be found here about midway the page. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/
Found this older post almost 5 years old, on the Milbank primer, for the .44-40 cartridge. I find it very interesting, and am wondering if any of the early Milbank primer cartridges are around, and what their value might be?
Anthony
I’d love to just have one. Very rare because they didn’t work well. Were Quickly replaced my the 1874 Patent owned by O.F. Winchester. Probably designed by Gardner who was a Winchester employee. These were quickly replaced by a Gardner primer. These are really hard to find but not as valuable as the Milbank. A box of Milbank primed cartridges go for over $10,000.
So let’s find some. I only want 1 of each.
Here is a picture of my Winchester Patent 44-40 box that I showed Chuck.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks for chiming in guy’s!
Bob, nice full box!
Chuck, if a box of Milbank primed cartridges goes for $10,000.00, what does a single cartridge of .44-40 Milbank primed bring?
Anthony
if a box exists for the Milbank primed cases, it would be more like $300,000 considering the only known single cartridge example sold for around 5K quite a few years ago.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
Brian,
I was hoping that you would also join the conversation. Very interesting, and pretty unbelievable, as the word Rarity certainly fits this category!
Pretty hard to believe that one known cartridge went for $5,000.00, also!
This is probably mind boggling for most people, as much as it is, for us collectors.
Anthony
Bryan Austin said
if a box exists for the Milbank primed cases, it would be more like $300,000 considering the only known single cartridge example sold for around 5K quite a few years ago.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
Bryan, I’m glad you got into this conversation. Sometime back I posted some pictures of the early primers. I was hoping you would comment. I did post 1873man’s picture but did not want to reveal the source because he didn’t tell me I could. And a couple of yours too. Lou Behling and Paul Moorelands have sent me some dissected primers and gave me some info.
What about the Winchester Patent box? Can singles be found and if so what is the estimate?
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/general-discussions-questions/primers/
Great information Bryon!
As early as this cartridge was, (Milbank primer), in the development of the .44-40, and the cartridge caliber that the model 1873 was based off of. I would think it’s possible, more than one original Milbank Cartridge exists, as I did read that some we’re found at the Bighorn Battle.
Anthony
As for the Patented Box
That is the 1874 to 1876, second style box with the top label wrapping around to the end side of the lid. Winchester did not seal their boxes at that time.
The “Rased Head” cartridges can be seen and have also been seen in some of the first style Milbank primed boxes. I would certainly be interested in seeing what primers those are.
Note the box also says SOLID-HEAD! With the exception of the Milbank primed cases, all of Winchester’s 44 WCF manufactured cartridge cases were solid-head. Winchester never made folded head 44 WCF cases.
That is a rarity box
I can only assume that would be the type box and cartridges Winchester used for their 1874 news letter….and Doc Pardee used to shoot this target in 1874.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/targetsload-development/1874-targets
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/targetsload-development/1875-targets
Chuck said
I’d love to just have one. Very rare because they didn’t work well. Were Quickly replaced my the 1874 Patent owned by O.F. Winchester. Probably designed by Gardner who was a Winchester employee. These were quickly replaced by a Gardner primer. These are really hard to find but not as valuable as the Milbank. A box of Milbank primed cartridges go for over $10,000.So let’s find some. I only want 1 of each.
Chuck, If one cartridge, went for $5,000.00 or more some years ago, what the heck would you pay, or one, go for today? If the word rare doesn’t apply to the very first, .44-40 cartridge design, with the Milbank primer, which not too many are known to exist, it sure has me wondering and curious! I value you’re experience and opinion, along with any others.
Anthony
Any idea of what the box of Winchester Patent shells I pictured previously is worth today?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Anthony said Chuck, If one cartridge, went for $5,000.00 or more some years ago, what the heck would you pay, or one, go for today?
It went at auction. So if it went to auction today, it would go for whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay. So the sky is the limit or how ever far deep your pockets go?
Your talking about a cartridge variation that was made over 150 years ago with likely only a few thousand made for a maybe few months, if that long. The so called “Patent Box” or 1st 44 WCF box with the label showing the milbank primed 44WCF is very rare. With maybe (3) three boxes known to exist today. None of which contain Milbank primed cartridges in them.
The one or two example cartridges sold at auction came from the Paul S. Foster collection, a former WRACo employee. Without it, I doubt many people would even know that this variation even existed.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Bryan definitely knows more than I. I don’t belong to the International Ammunition Association. I know a couple that do and I think Maverick does.
https://cartridgecollectors.org/
With the little I know Winchester seems to have been a little late into the game. S&W and the Military were using center fire primers in the late 1860’s. Colt and Remington converted some percussion pistols to center fire. Like the 1860 Army Colt and the 1858 Remington. The Colt Thuer conversions loaded the cartridge from the front of the cylinder, not the back. I have a couple of Thuer, Remington, Colt and S&W cartridges. I will take some pictures.
We have talked about the Benet internal primers before but there were many others. I will take some pictures of some of the Martin primed cartridges that were used my S&W, Colt and Remington Military arms. UMC was most likely the manufacturer of the commercial rounds for Colt and Remington.
1873man said
Any idea of what the box of Winchester Patent shells I pictured previously is worth today?Bob
Bob, That box is incredible, and I’m glad you brought it up, as it’s been on my mind. I would venture to say, several thousand Dollars, as in the right auction setting, who knows. Can’t be many second issue boxes around and in that nice of condition!
Bob, you being a very good authority and historian, on the model 1973, you’re knowledge and thought on the Milbank primer, is greatly appreciated here. You have to understand,(more than most), the history of the model 1873, being delayed, due to the first .44-40 C. F. (.44WCF),cartridge creation, and the Milbank primer fails, and Gardner primer helping to get the .44-40 cartridge off the ground and running. I know this is not new news to you, and I tried to word it properly, as I feel it’s very important information.
Thanks for posting it,
Anthony
Maverick said
Anthony said Chuck, If one cartridge, went for $5,000.00 or more some years ago, what the heck would you pay, or one, go for today?
It went at auction. So if it went to auction today, it would go for whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay. So the sky is the limit or how ever far deep your pockets go?
Your talking about a cartridge variation that was made over 150 years ago with likely only a few thousand made for a maybe few months, if that long. The so called “Patent Box” or 1st 44 WCF box with the label showing the milbank primed 44WCF is very rare. With maybe (3) three boxes known to exist today. None of which contain Milbank primed cartridges in them.
The one or two example cartridges sold at auction came from the Paul S. Foster collection, a former WRACo employee. Without it, I doubt many people would even know that this variation even existed.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Brady, I can agree with you also, as the 1952 Gun Digest 6 page article, that Paul Foster wrote and edited by John Amber, “Winchester’s forgotten Cartridges 1866-1900”, contains information on this vary cartridge. As a member of IAA, have you seen more than the two cartridges known in existence, that went to auction? I only know of the two known, as one is a paper patched cartridge, from Paul Foster’s collection. Like Brian Austin has said we might never know!
Anthony
Chuck said
Bryan definitely knows more than I. I don’t belong to the International Ammunition Association. I know a couple that do and I think Maverick does.https://cartridgecollectors.org/
With the little I know Winchester seems to have been a little late into the game. S&W and the Military were using center fire primers in the late 1860’s. Colt and Remington converted some percussion pistols to center fire. Like the 1860 Army Colt and the 1858 Remington. The Colt Thuer conversions loaded the cartridge from the front of the cylinder, not the back. I have a couple of Thuer, Remington, Colt and S&W cartridges. I will take some pictures.
We have talked about the Benet internal primers before but there were many others. I will take some pictures of some of the Martin primed cartridges that were used my S&W, Colt and Remington Military arms. UMC was most likely the manufacturer of the commercial rounds for Colt and Remington.
Chuck, I agree, as Hotchkiss was involved during this period also. I read somewhere, with all the military involvement and inventors trying to make their so called mark, and the U. S. recently coming out of the Civil War, many we’re looking to try to convince the government on a new cartridge development, hence the B. P. cartridge, from the B. P. paper packs, making it much easier to load from the breach, instead of the muzzle. This being a broad range as we all understand the Henry, and the model 1866, used the .44 Henry flat rim fire cartridge, and a few of the later model 1866’s we’re converted to C. F. as not to get too far off track, and back to the Milbank primer, as the topic of conversation. The .44-40 C. F. cartridge development, first availability in and about, the early 1970’s, as Brian Austin’s article shows Oliver Winchester four patents that were applied for, before switching from the Milbank primer, and using the Gardner primer, hence the first model 1873’s late in that year, and finally many mfg. into 1874 and beyond. As we’re all well aware of Colt and others adopting the .44-4- C. F. cartridge themselves, along with others as is stated above by Chuck.
Below is the paper patched cartridge from Paul Foster collection. .208 gr. F. P. paper patched bullet,(.422 dia.) The other single known cartridge,(non paper patched), 200 grain R. P. bullet,(.428 dia.) That Brian Austin has documented.
Anthony
You guys know more than I do on the 44 WCF Milbank cartridge. The only thing I ever recall seeing in the article was the mention of the Milbank primer itself, not the 44 WCF cartridge.
The paper patch cartridge Anthany posted, I have never seen before. Is that a 44 WCF?
Winchester “44 WCF” 1st box label, known at the time as the 44/100 for Winchester’s Model of 1873′.
Of the few boxes known, I think one is empty, one is partial and one is full. No Milbank primed cartridges.
Winchester 44 WCF 2nd box label, known as the 44 Model of 1873′
The boxes were not sealed and the top label wrapped around the box end, but only on the lid portion.
The second label, first variation, was the same as the 2nd label, with the exception that the label was only on the top. The new side seal label was then used to seal the box.
The rest is history……
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