Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
Widow peak hammers
September 16, 2019
2:14 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 882
Member Since:
July 8, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

twobit said
Hello Al,

In my survey I am trying to determine when the change from CC to blued for the hammer and levers.  The problem is that these parts are typical so worn that it is hard (read impossible) to tell what they were without hands on inspection and I am only working with peoples poor photos most of the time.  It is my belief (no documented proof) that the change happened at the same time for both parts.  The best I have determined is it was around 1915.  I will eventually be going back into the photos I have of each rifle in the survey and try to take a second look to narrow it down.  Can you send me a photo of the hammer on that wonderful carbine of yours please?

Michael  

Yep, as soon as I get some photos taken.

thanks.

September 16, 2019
7:39 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 882
Member Since:
July 8, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

twobit said
Hello Al,

In my survey I am trying to determine when the change from CC to blued for the hammer and levers.  The problem is that these parts are typical so worn that it is hard (read impossible) to tell what they were without hands on inspection and I am only working with peoples poor photos most of the time.  It is my belief (no documented proof) that the change happened at the same time for both parts.  The best I have determined is it was around 1915.  I will eventually be going back into the photos I have of each rifle in the survey and try to take a second look to narrow it down.  Can you send me a photo of the hammer on that wonderful carbine of yours please?

Michael  

Michael,

I sent you two emails with photos.

Thanks,

Al

September 18, 2019
2:34 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1496
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

1892takedown said
In looking through some of my dads old parts, there appears to be a wide variation between hammers prior to the "Third Type" with the serrated lines. 

IMG_1771.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1773.JPGImage Enlarger

If you had the time and enough examples, maybe you could narrow down a date range for each variation.   

Well not keep stirring the pot on this topic but here it goes anyway.

I've been collecting Winchester Reloading Tools for a number of years, and especially the Model 1894 Reloading Tool. I have no doubt in my mind that the loading die on the bottom portion of the Tool was knurled by the Winchester Factory. They produced the 1894 Tool from 1893 to the 1920s, so for some 30 odd years. Now I don't know how many Model 1894 Tools were produced, but imagine it was a lot. If it was 10% of the Model 1894 Rifle's production for the same years, it would be over 90,000 Tools. As such, the knurling pattern seen on the die of the tools can vary greatly as well. In fact I'd be hard pressed to find a set of dies that looked exactly the same. So I don't see why its no surprise that there would be a wide variation with the pattern on the hammers as well.

Here are four dies I picked off the top of my display case that are fairly minty in condition. They're recently acquired as I hadn't found time to add them to the display cabinet yet. 

Knurlked94Dies.jpgImage Enlarger

Sincerely,

Maverick

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

ToolArray-SignatureLowRes-4.jpg

WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!

September 18, 2019
7:02 am
Avatar
South Texas
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 918
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Maverick said

1892takedown said
In looking through some of my dads old parts, there appears to be a wide variation between hammers prior to the "Third Type" with the serrated lines. 

IMG_1771.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1773.JPGImage Enlarger

If you had the time and enough examples, maybe you could narrow down a date range for each variation.   

Well not keep stirring the pot on this topic but here it goes anyway.

I've been collecting Winchester Reloading Tools for a number of years, and especially the Model 1894 Reloading Tool. I have no doubt in my mind that the loading die on the bottom portion of the Tool was knurled by the Winchester Factory. They produced the 1894 Tool from 1893 to the 1920s, so for some 30 odd years. Now I don't know how many Model 1894 Tools were produced, but imagine it was a lot. If it was 10% of the Model 1894 Rifle's production for the same years, it would be over 90,000 Tools. As such, the knurling pattern seen on the die of the tools can vary greatly as well. In fact I'd be hard pressed to find a set of dies that looked exactly the same. So I don't see why its no surprise that there would be a wide variation with the pattern on the hammers as well.

Here are four dies I picked off the top of my display case that are fairly minty in condition. They're recently acquired as I hadn't found time to add them to the display cabinet yet. 

Knurlked94Dies.jpgImage Enlarger

Sincerely,

Maverick  

I know what you mean, its turned into a bit of a rabbit hole.  Of the 12 hammers in the photo, each knurling pattern is different.  Whether its hammer stamping or loading tool knurling the more examples you have within specific serial number or date ranges, the potential exists to develop a seriation for the multitude of type/varieties of stamping or knurling used through time, if one is so inclined to test if its possible.     

In archaeology we used a similar means to identify and seriate ceramics at archaeological sites or deposits based on a type/variety system, to identify the appearance, decline, or coexistence of certain manufacturing processes, materials, combinations features or traits possessed during specific periods of time.  The key is having a large enough data set tied to a timeline to establish a baseline and seriation that can be modified or updated as the sample population becomes larger.  The end result, in theory as well as in practice, is the ability to identify the period or horizon for the occurrence of certain features or traits from original contexts and test the validity of contexts for which outliers occur.  If it can be done with millions of pots and pottery shards, it can likely be done to some degree with hammers and loading tools.   As for the hammers, the types have already been defined, its a matter of determining the multitude of varieties  that may exist for each type over a specified time frame.  It would likely be a fairly dull endeavor unless your a special kind of person looking for a good challenge or dissertation project. 

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

September 23, 2019
5:40 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1276
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I had the opportunity to talk to 2 nationally known Colt collectors.  Both said that the early hammers were hand cut but later they were knurled with a machine while the hammers were hot.  One of them thought this change occurred at the turn of the century.  Maybe Winchester did something similar?

September 23, 2019
7:34 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1457
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Chuck said  Both said that the early hammers were hand cut but later they were knurled with a machine while the hammers were hot.

Ask them this:  If the hammers were shaped on a milling machine, why would they be hot?  If they were drop forged they'd be hot, but why make the checkering a separate operation, when the pattern could be created by the forging dies?

September 23, 2019
11:52 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1276
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Clarence I will ask them next time I see them.  We were all at the same auction the last 2 days.  I assumed the hammers were hot because they were heated for the knurling process not because they got hot during the manufacturing process. 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: mrcvs
53 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 6987

Posts: 56803


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 946

Members: 9027

Moderators: 5

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 4157

twobit: 2543

TXGunNut: 2290

Maverick: 1496

clarence: 1457

Big Larry: 1395

Chuck: 1276

JWA: 1247

Wincacher: 1181

Brad Dunbar: 1076

Navigation