1886 40 Express|Page 2|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Do you mind showing a picture of the head stamps? I’d like to know what variation they are.

Is that a UMC brand cartridge on the right?

Sincerely,

Maverick

oldcrankyyankee said

  

Hey Bill , did they bring the “Marshfield Find”?

  

I looked for it and did not see it. Didn’t ask them about it either though…

Chuck said Maverick, both are W.R.A.Co. .40-82 W.C.F. head stamped with the old #1 brass primers.  I’ll take a picture when I can.  My cell phone and my email are not happy with each other right now.

Are you certain that the bullet on the right is the correct bullet for the Winchester cartridge?

I suspect or to me at least, it looks like what UMC used.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Chuck said
Maverick,  I don’t have any reference book that shows a picture of the bullet. 

I don’t know if there is a good reference book that specifically deals with the actual Winchester cartridges and bullets only. At least not a well written book with modern color digital photography that has been written in the last 40 years,  that I’ve heard of. Probably a good idea for a new book.

One reason I ask, is that my understanding is that all of Winchester’s express tubes in their bullets have a embossed ‘X’ on them for the “express” bullet.

Here is a website that gives and example that was made by UMC. My understanding UMC didn’t use tubes with the X, as it was a Trademark issue.

https://cartridgecollector.net/cartridge/40-75-260-winchester-express/

Sincerely,

Maverick

I have examples of other express bullets that have the X.  I dug out my WRACO 38 EX, the 40 Ex and the 45 EX.  The 38 does not have a tube, the 40 has a tube but no X and looks just like the 40-75, the 45 has the X. 

So maybe I need to keep looking for the EX cartridges and see if I can find others that have the X.  All of what I have have the old bronze primers but maybe those without the X were early reloads?

The 38-90 Winchester Express was only sold with a solid bullet and the 50-100-450 is often referred to as a Express Cartridge was only sold with a solid bullet. People often confuse the 50-95 Express & 50-110 Express with the 50-100-450. 

My understanding is that all “Express” Winchester cartridges (with the exception of the 38-90) were made with the express tube that has the raised ‘X’ on them.

Dan Shuey relayed to me this was one of the ways he could tell if any particular 70-150 Express cartridge was a fake or not. Whether or not if it had an express tube on the end of the bullet and if it had the raised X. He said most fakes wouldn’t have the express tube in the bullet, often hollowed out on the end at the wrong diameter and depth. Plus Winchester was the only one that made the express tubes with the X and they haven’t been produced in many years. So that part of the bullet would be difficult to fake.

Reportedly UMC only used plain unmarked express tubes in their cartridges. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

Chuck said
Finally got caught up after Cody.  Here is a picture of a 40-82 next to a 40-75.  Both head stamps say 40-82.

  

Thank you, I was unaware of the brass tube construction of the Winchester Express bullets. Interesting feature.

Mike

Bert H. said
40 EX. U.M.C. – flat copper tube, no “X” marking

40 EX. W.R.A.Co. – rounded copper tube no “X” marking (just like the picture Chuck posted of the 40-75 WRCAo. ctg.)

45 EX. U.M.C. – flat copper tub, no “X” marking)

45 EX. W.R.A.Co. – flat copper tube “X’ marked

50-95 W.C.F. W.R.A.Co. – flat copper tube “X” marked

Bert,

What is the approx. diameter of the copper tube on the .40 Cal Winchester Cartridge? Is it the same for the UMC counterpart?

What does the diameter of your 45 WRACo copper tube measure? Is it the same for the UMC counterpart?

My research notes have the 45 cal. tube to have a diameter of .225″. I thought that they used the same size tubes for all the various express calibers. Is there a difference in size between the 45 and 50?

Sincerely,

Maverick

Chuck,  and others, too!   My old (older than me, at least) farmer friend rescued a cartridge collection from being submerged in a cistern when he was but a kid himself.  One that he has and has shown me is a 70-150 cartridge with no headstamp.  It is old enough the brass is pin holing from corrosion from the inside.  I’ve looked at it and may one day end up with it.  I’ve no doubt it is an old original cartridge but may be made by other than Winchester, say by Eley.  I do NOT recall what the lead bullet may have had in its nose-whether tubed or not, etc.  He loves questions on Winchester related items.  I will ask him if the nose had a tube, and if so if it has the X.  When that happens I hope to find this thread once more and post an answer.  I about bet he has had this cartridge since the 1950s, so it may predate the counterfeit ones.  Tim

Now this is quite educational. Knowing absolutely nothing about the express rounds, the cutaway shown above would lead me to conclude that the copper tubing acts as a sort of hollow point round, promoting faster expansion, and also would reduce the weight of the bullet, thus giving faster speed and flatter trajectory.  Was that the express intent (pun intended) of Winchester, or was something else at play.

BRP