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November 5, 2014
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Hi Chuck-
There are others, like seewin, who could more correctly answer the question about 1930s 1000-yard target size… But I THINK that they were shooting the “C class” target at 1000 yards. This had a 36-inch bullseye, 54-inch four ring, 72-inch square three rectangle and 24-inch by 72-inch wings worth two points. In other words, you got “points” if you could hit anywhere on a 6-foot high by 10-foot wide target with iron sights at 1000-yards…
Of course the challenge of 1000-yard unsupported prone shooting had more to do with judging wind and mirage than with the inherent accuracy of the rifle… Mr. Tekulsky’s M70 would have looked a lot like this (only with his Fecker scope on top).
The modern “F class” which permits bipods and telescopic sights, uses a 0.5 MOA X-ring (5-inch) and 1 MOA (10-inch) 10 ring at 1000-yards. But that’s not relevant to long range shooting in the 1930s.
If it ever stops raining here I might do a small experiment. Take one of my pre-64 M70 270 WIN Target rifles, put a 20X Unertl on it, and go over to the range and shoot 100-yards from s bench with factory ammo. Just curious what it would do “out of the box”… Allowing for my wibbles and wobbles, of course… 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Chuck said
Louis Luttrell said
This is for Tedk…
While it’s not exactly “bench rest” shooting, somebody thought that the pre-64 M70 was a Target Rifle…
This from American Rifleman in 1938. New World Record of (106) consecutive bull’s eyes at 1000 yards…
Lou
Very interesting Lou. I wonder how large the “bullseye” was.
Chuck, you beat me to asking the same question — and I’ll hazard a guess it was big enough to see.
I found this information about Palma matches, which may or may not be the same setup as the Winchester ad was concerned with. We do not know how much of the winner’s rounds went into what size “bullseye.” My knowledge of long range high power competition comes out of books only.
My limited understanding of “bullseye” means everything within the black scoring rings.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
That is not to low rate the shooter or the Winchester bull gun. Anybody who can dope wind and control trigger well enough to put 90 consecutive rounds from a Super Thirty into 44 inches at 1000 yards is no ordinary mortal.
However, I would argue that the accomplishment is almost completely attributable to the skill of the Rifleman, not the inherent accuracy of the rifle.
A rifle capable of 2 MOA can deliver 20 inch groups at 1000 yards. If the rifleman can keep center on the target, that is more than sufficient.
My experience with the Model 70 bull gun has consisted of picking one up at a DGCA show and wondering how long I could remain on my elbows while holding the thing in firing position. Not long.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Zeb-
As long as I’m doing some quick “Google-Fu”…. I found this article from the NRA Shooting Sports USA…
https://www.ssusa.org/content/the-wimbledon-cup/
In it is a brief description of the target that Ben Comfort shot at to win the Wimbledon Cup in 1935. The Wimbledon match consisted of 20-shots (plus two sighting-in shots) fired at 1000 yards with any rifle (telescopic sights were permitted). Comfort used a 300 H&H Magnum rifle built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester barrel and a 5X scope. The barrel was one of the first 28-inch Extra Heavy contour barrels in 300 MAGNUM made by Winchester.
The 1935 Wimbledon match used the “V” target, which had a 36-inch five-count bulls eye and a smaller 20-inch V-ring. We’d call it the “X” ring on a small bore target with ten scoring rings; the “V” and “X” representing Roman numerals. Comfort’s winning score was 100 (20×5)-14V. So he hit the 36-inch circle 20 consecutive times, of which 14 were inside of 20-inches. I believe that, to even be visible at 1000-yards, both the 54-inch 4-ring and inner 36-inch 5-ring of the “V” target were black, as on the “C” target I mentioned above.
What’s interesting to me, as an aside, is that in 1935 Winchester was making the M54 “Sniper’s Match” rifle. This was the forerunner to the M70 Bull Gun and had a 26-inch Extra Heavy barrel (same as the bull gun contour just 2-inches shorter) in 30 GOV’T’06. The Model 54 receiver as never adapted to the longer H&H cartridges, so Comfort’s Wimbledon rifle had to be built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester 300 MAGNUM Bull Gun barrel…
Here’s a pic of Tedk’s M54 Sniper’s Match rifle for comparison to the M70 Bull Gun.
I’m sure Comfort’s exploits added impetus to Winchester’s decision to market the M70 Bull Gun in 1937 in 300 H&H MAGNUM as well as 30 GOV’T’06…
As for what they were using for a target in Peekskill NY in 1938, they don’t say… But if Sam Tekulsky’s score for the 100 shot match was (99)x5 plus (1)x4 as it says in the ad, it was probably the “C” target with no “V’ ring. So (99) consecutive shots into a 36-inch circle at 1000 yards would be my guess.
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Zeb-As long as I’m doing some quick “Google-Fu”….
https://www.ssusa.org/content/the-wimbledon-cup/
In it is a brief description of the target that Ben Comfort shot at to win the Wimbledon Cup in 1935. The Wimbledon match consisted of 20-shots (plus two sighting-in shots) fired at 1000 yards with any rifle (telescopic sights were permitted). Comfort used a 300 H&H Magnum rifle built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester barrel and a 5X scope. The barrel was one of the first 28-inch Extra Heavy contour barrels in 300 MAGNUM made by Winchester.
The 1935 Wimbledon match used the “V” target, which had a 36-inch five-count bulls eye and a smaller 20-inch V-ring. We’d call it the “X” ring on a small bore target with ten scoring rings; the “V” and “X” representing Roman numerals. Comfort’s winning score was 100 (20×5)-14V. So he hit the 36-inch circle 20 consecutive times, of which 14 were inside of 20-inches. I believe that, to even be visible at 1000-yards, both the 54-inch 4-ring and inner 36-inch 5-ring of the “V” target were black, as on the “C” target I mentioned above.
What’s interesting to me, as an aside, is that in 1935 Winchester was making the M54 “Sniper’s Match” rifle. This was the forerunner to the M70 Bull Gun and had a 26-inch Extra Heavy barrel (same as the bull gun contour just 2-inches shorter) in 30 GOV’T’06. The Model 54 receiver as never adapted to the longer H&H cartridges, so Comfort’s Wimbledon rifle had to be built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester 300 MAGNUM Bull Gun barrel…
Here’s a pic of Tedk’s M54 Sniper’s Match rifle for comparison to the M70 Bull Gun.
I’m sure Comfort’s exploits added impetus to Winchester’s decision to market the M70 Bull Gun in 1937 in 300 H&H MAGNUM as well as 30 GOV’T’06…
As for what they were using for a target in Peekskill NY in 1938, they don’t say… But if Sam Tekulsky’s score for the 100 shot match was (99)x5 plus (1)x4 as it says in the ad, it was probably the “C” target with no “V’ ring. So (99) consecutive shots into a 36-inch circle at 1000 yards would be my guess.
Cheers,
Lou
Lou,
Do you never rest?
O.K. -. 99 rounds into.a 36″ circle at 1000 yards.
Assuming our champion can hold center and dope wind with the personal advice of St. Christopher on each shot, can a 2 MOA rifle bring home the gold?
A two minute angle of dispersion would keep.all shots within a 20″ circle at 1000 yards, assuming a consistent center hold, no mean feet. Assuming a random dispersion within that circle, I can’t remember enough of my Statistics 101 to compute the probability of 10 shots of 99 falling within a smaller 10″ circle. But I’d guess a fair chance.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Great Thread
At 9 pages lots of legs and lots of good info and discussion
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 7, 2015
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Zeb-
From my markedly undistinguished competition shooting career I can theorize most of the top shooters had the best equipment available at the time. The difference is consistency. Every one of those competitors had equipment capable of the feat mentioned above. Only one was fired by a competitor who consistently took advantage of his rifle’s ability. Consistency wins matches. Every competitor has lost a match because of momentary mental lapses.
Mike
November 5, 2014
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Hi Zeb-
If one were shooting in a (literal) vacuum, your posit would be correct. One MOA equates to roughly 1-inch at 100 yards and 10-inches at 1000 yards. So under “perfect” conditions, meaning no randomness introduced by pesky things like wind, mirage and the shooter’s inability to always aim at EXACTLY the same point, a rifle capable of only 3 MOA accuracy at 100 yards would be capable of hitting a 30-inch target at 1000 yards every time.
But conditions in 1000-yard prone shooting are far from “perfect”. Even if we assume that the shooter/rifle combination is capable of 1 MOA accuracy (no more than 0.5 MOA point-of-impact dispersion from the “true” center of the target), there’s the “randomness” of atmospheric conditions to consider. Assuming that the bullets are initially launched with sufficient precision that all (100) of them would pass through a 1 MOA circle at 100 yards, the distance the bullet must travel before striking the target is 10X that. Moreover, the time of flight is MUCH longer than 10X that of a bullet traveling only 100 yards, as it is slowing down continuously. So the farther out you go, not only does aiming get harder (mirage), but the opportunity for random drift due to the presence/absence of wind will inevitably cause that 1 MOA group to open up, no matter how good the shooter is at “doping” the wind.
It amazes me that anyone shooting prone with any equipment could keep 106 consecutive shots (counting his “sighters”) in a 36″ (3.5 MOA) circle at 1000 yards. When Carlos Hathcock, the famed Viet Nam USMC sniper, won the Wimbledon Cup in 1965 (shooting a Model 70), his score was 100-17V. Not much better than Ben Comfort’s (100-14V) score from 30-years earlier…
In my view, the “F” Class 1000-yard target I was reading about, with 5″ (0.5 MOA) X-ring and 10″ (1 MOA) 10-ring is cruel and unusual punishment. It gets to the point where the target is no longer detecting who is the best shooter, but who is the “luckiest”…
Mind you… I have never been a competitive shooter (bench or position), and wouldn’t have been competitive if I had tried… 
Last year, seewin’s Nephew, who competes in ARA “unlimited” 22 rimfire bench rest, showed me one of the targets they shoot at 50-yards. Twenty-five little black “dots” on a single target, each about the diameter of a .22 caliber bullet. Scoring is you either hit it or you miss it… The target he showed me was “used”, in that he’d shot it in competition a couple days before. ALL (25) shots were “hits”… I was in AWE!!! According to Brian, their perfectly tuned bench rifles are capable of putting (50) consecutive shots in the same hole at 50-yards (indoors). The determining factor is which shooter can best judge the amount of drift, which can be as much as 3/4” at 50-yards with 22 LR match ammunition…
I suspect Chuck can do that with his tuned rifles… But I NEVER could have, even when my eyesight was perfect and I could still feel my fingers!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Zebulon said
Chuck said
Louis Luttrell said
This is for Tedk…
While it’s not exactly “bench rest” shooting, somebody thought that the pre-64 M70 was a Target Rifle…
This from American Rifleman in 1938. New World Record of (106) consecutive bull’s eyes at 1000 yards…
Lou
Very interesting Lou. I wonder how large the “bullseye” was.
Chuck, you beat me to asking the same question — and I’ll hazard a guess it was big enough to see.
I found this information about Palma matches, which may or may not be the same setup as the Winchester ad was concerned with. We do not know how much of the winner’s rounds went into what size “bullseye.” My knowledge of long range high power competition comes out of books only.
My limited understanding of “bullseye” means everything within the black scoring rings.
“A standard Palma target for long-range shooting at 800, 900, and 1000 yards has a 44-inch aiming black, which includes the 8, 9, and 10 rings. The 10-ring has a 20-inch diameter, and the X-ring (the innermost scoring ring) is 10 inches in diameter.”
Currently the target used by F Class Open at 800 to 1000 yds has a 10″ center with a 5″ X ring. Most winning shooters put their 20 shots in the 10 ring but the winner is the one with the most shots in the X ring. These competitors shoot .250″ groups or better at 100 yds. If not they won’t use the barrel. To win they need to shoot 3″ groups at 1000 yds.
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Zeb-As long as I’m doing some quick “Google-Fu”….
https://www.ssusa.org/content/the-wimbledon-cup/
In it is a brief description of the target that Ben Comfort shot at to win the Wimbledon Cup in 1935. The Wimbledon match consisted of 20-shots (plus two sighting-in shots) fired at 1000 yards with any rifle (telescopic sights were permitted). Comfort used a 300 H&H Magnum rifle built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester barrel and a 5X scope. The barrel was one of the first 28-inch Extra Heavy contour barrels in 300 MAGNUM made by Winchester.
The 1935 Wimbledon match used the “V” target, which had a 36-inch five-count bulls eye and a smaller 20-inch V-ring. We’d call it the “X” ring on a small bore target with ten scoring rings; the “V” and “X” representing Roman numerals. Comfort’s winning score was 100 (20×5)-14V. So he hit the 36-inch circle 20 consecutive times, of which 14 were inside of 20-inches. I believe that, to even be visible at 1000-yards, both the 54-inch 4-ring and inner 36-inch 5-ring of the “V” target were black, as on the “C” target I mentioned above.
What’s interesting to me, as an aside, is that in 1935 Winchester was making the M54 “Sniper’s Match” rifle. This was the forerunner to the M70 Bull Gun and had a 26-inch Extra Heavy barrel (same as the bull gun contour just 2-inches shorter) in 30 GOV’T’06. The Model 54 receiver as never adapted to the longer H&H cartridges, so Comfort’s Wimbledon rifle had to be built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester 300 MAGNUM Bull Gun barrel…
Here’s a pic of Tedk’s M54 Sniper’s Match rifle for comparison to the M70 Bull Gun.
I’m sure Comfort’s exploits added impetus to Winchester’s decision to market the M70 Bull Gun in 1937 in 300 H&H MAGNUM as well as 30 GOV’T’06…
As for what they were using for a target in Peekskill NY in 1938, they don’t say… But if Sam Tekulsky’s score for the 100 shot match was (99)x5 plus (1)x4 as it says in the ad, it was probably the “C” target with no “V’ ring. So (99) consecutive shots into a 36-inch circle at 1000 yards would be my guess.
Cheers,
Lou
Lou, things have really changed since then. The Brits still call it a V while we call it a X. The scopes that are being used now are 50x or 60x 1/8″ clicks. The loading equipment and the process is so advanced. No shooter can win with a bad rifle or load on a consistent basis. One thing that remains the same, if you can’t read the wind you are in big trouble.
I just ordered a March scope. I had been using Nightforce.
https://marchscopes.com/scopes/d60hv56tm/
Here are the results of the Southwest Nationals shot near Phoenix a couple months ago. Tim Vaught took overall. They experienced some really bad winds.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pDGwrJ7uXpuCPxs24-ch7wA6pXCq4GEn/view
November 7, 2015
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Zeb-
From my markedly undistinguished competition shooting career I can theorize most of the top shooters had the best equipment available at the time. The difference is consistency. Every one of those competitors had equipment capable of the feat mentioned above. Only one was fired by a competitor who consistently took advantage of his rifle’s ability. Consistency wins matches. Every competitor has lost a match because of momentary mental lapses.
Mike
I had a weird day at the range yesterday. I had been shooting some Fiocchi 130 grain factory ammo as foulers. They had been shooting just over 3,000 fps. Yesterday my first shot with these only went in the high 2,800’s and hit the target at least a foot high. The second shot the same so the last 2 were shot in the dirt. All were at least a 120 fps slower than before? The first 2 messed up my target by making extra holes. I had been holding at a spot way below the target. But each of these created a hard bolt lift? This means higher pressures but at a slower speed?
Last week I bought a box of Hornady 130 grain flat based bullets to test. These are my first shots. I screwed the forearm screw in by about a 1/2″ to be in the area where the bullets were shooting the best.
I started on the lower right and shot 5 ea 3 shot groups going counter clock wise and ending in the middle while shooting a mini powder ladder. I was looking for 2,800 fps. The first group at 54.2 grains shot at 2,707 fps but was so wild. 5.159″. One of the bullets hit in the target in the upper right. The next group at 54.4 grains produced a group of 1.156″ at 2,719 fps. (the target is not marked correctly) Third group at 54.6 grains produced a group of .740″ at 2,745 fps. Fourth group at 54.8 grains produced a group of 1.505″ at 2,769 fps. The next group at 55.0 grains produced a group of 2.915″ at 2.808 fps. I keep notes as I shoot. Good thing, it was hard enough to keep track of the holes.
I really liked the group at 54.6 grains so I shot another one that was the same load. It produced a group of .649″ at 2,764 fps. I was aiming at an intersection on the very right side and in the middle of the target. It grouped high and to the left of my point of aim.
The 2 that are circled and have a F are the 2 foulers. Below the target there is another circled F where I was aiming when shooting the first 2 foulers.
November 7, 2015
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Nice! As you know I have a few Post-64 M70’s that do very well with the flat based Hornady .30 bullets so it’s no surprise your .270 likes them. Even when bullet weights varied by 3-4 grains they performed well in my rifles.
I’m puzzled by the Fiocchi performance, sounds like a bad lot of powder or bullets or both. I have no experience with Fiocchi brass so I don’t know if it would even be worthwhile to pull the bullets other than to satisfy your curiosity about what kind of garbage was stuffed in there.
Mike
Chuck, I’m with Mike. My knowledge base doesn’t cover this! They are supposed to be high quality ammo makers. Kind of wonder at bullet diameter or such, but I am definitely out of my depth here. Tim
The biggest question is why did they shoot OK pressure wise the week before? And faster? I’ve been thinking about this and wonder if I didn’t clean the chamber? An oily chamber can cause pressure issues. The temp was 20 degrees hotter but it is still weird. I will shoot at least one more on Tuesday.
If I have time I’m going to pull the bullets and reload the powder for the 32 that I have left. I’m going to experiment each side of 54.6 grains.
I bought a highwall and it arrived today. This may be my next project. The caliber is one of those that nobody makes the brass. I have some Sharps brass that may work. I hate guns I can’t shoot.
Online
Chuck,
I know I’m late to the party, but I have been following this thread for as long as it’s been going on, and I’m wondering, do you record, everything when shooting?
Like, Time of Day, temperature, Winds, and direction of winds besides mph, and humidity, barometric pressure? etc………..and I mean everything, as we do when we shoot.
My youngest, Scout Sniper Marine Corps, taught us to years ago, along with the team, that we shoot with! Just Saying!
Not trying to sound arrogant here, as you could be right with, not cleaning the oil out of the barrel!
Straight shooting Pard! 
Anthony
Anthony said
Chuck,I know I’m late to the party, but I have been following this thread for as long as it’s been going on, and I’m wondering, do you record, everything when shooting?
Like, Time of Day, temperature, Winds, and direction of winds besides mph, and humidity, barometric pressure? etc………..and I mean everything, as we do when we shoot.
My youngest, Scout Sniper Marine Corps, taught us to years ago, along with the team, that we shoot with! Just Saying!
Not trying to sound arrogant here, as you could be right with, not cleaning the oil out of the barrel!
Straight shooting Pard!
Anthony
I keep a log book and an Excel spreadsheet for every round I shoot and have been doing so in one form or another since the late 1980’s. At the range I chronograph every shot. I don’t record everything. But can. I have a Kestrel that can give me the weather data and a lot more. It has a ballistic calculator that can produce shooting solutions. From what I have learned from champion shooters the one outside source that effects your load the most is the temperature. If the winds are out of the normal I will record them. The Kestrel helped me shoot at 1,820 yards at a 20″ by 20″ steel plate. I didn’t do well because of the wind. I forget the wind hold but that same day we also shot at milk jugs at 1,000 yds. I was holding 7 feet of wind. I dialed all that he scope could go then had to use the subtensions in the reticle for the rest. Army 11F Recon.
I don’t think any oil that may have been in the barrel was a problem but in the chamber might. We’ll see Tuesday what happens.
Chuck,
I can truly appreciate you’re comments and response. I figured that much in all honesty, as with you’re experience, abilities in what you’re doing, I really didn’t expect much less, in all honesty. I am in total agreement in the heat factor in more than one way, as the heat mirage, in itself is an amazing factor. Besides the other heat variables, involved.
Looking forward to you’re results from Tuesday.
Good Shooting to You!
Anthony
I knocked the bullets out of the cartridges that I had previously loaded that were not loaded with 54.62 grains of the H 4831 SC.
I re loaded 6 cases at 54.54 grains
6 more at 54.56 grains
10 at the original 54.62 grains where the rifle had grouped the best.
6 at 54.64 grains.
6 at 54.68 grains.
I’d like to see what these will do in case I get a little sloppy with the powder or if there is a slight temperature change.
Bullet seating depth is still unknown but is the same base to ogive I shot before. I had to order the L drill and the 5/16″-36 tap to make a new case for the new Hornady tool. Can’t find where I left the other ones? I got the drill and drilled a case.
The Temp looks like it might be a little cooler than last Tuesday.
I did not clean the barrel.
Anthony said
Chuck,I can truly appreciate you’re comments and response. I figured that much in all honesty, as with you’re experience, abilities in what you’re doing, I really didn’t expect much less, in all honesty. I am in total agreement in the heat factor in more than one way, as the heat mirage, in itself is an amazing factor. Besides the other heat variables, involved.
Looking forward to you’re results from Tuesday.
Good Shooting to You!
Anthony
The only way I know to help with mirage is to dial back the zoom so it clears up. A lot of the long range shooters like some mirage. It helps them read the wind.
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