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November 5, 2014
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Hi Chuck-
There are others, like seewin, who could more correctly answer the question about 1930s 1000-yard target size… But I THINK that they were shooting the “C class” target at 1000 yards. This had a 36-inch bullseye, 54-inch four ring, 72-inch square three rectangle and 24-inch by 72-inch wings worth two points. In other words, you got “points” if you could hit anywhere on a 6-foot high by 10-foot wide target with iron sights at 1000-yards…
Of course the challenge of 1000-yard unsupported prone shooting had more to do with judging wind and mirage than with the inherent accuracy of the rifle… Mr. Tekulsky’s M70 would have looked a lot like this (only with his Fecker scope on top).
The modern “F class” which permits bipods and telescopic sights, uses a 0.5 MOA X-ring (5-inch) and 1 MOA (10-inch) 10 ring at 1000-yards. But that’s not relevant to long range shooting in the 1930s.
If it ever stops raining here I might do a small experiment. Take one of my pre-64 M70 270 WIN Target rifles, put a 20X Unertl on it, and go over to the range and shoot 100-yards from s bench with factory ammo. Just curious what it would do “out of the box”… Allowing for my wibbles and wobbles, of course… 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Chuck said
Louis Luttrell said
This is for Tedk…
While it’s not exactly “bench rest” shooting, somebody thought that the pre-64 M70 was a Target Rifle…
This from American Rifleman in 1938. New World Record of (106) consecutive bull’s eyes at 1000 yards…
Lou
Very interesting Lou. I wonder how large the “bullseye” was.
Chuck, you beat me to asking the same question — and I’ll hazard a guess it was big enough to see.
I found this information about Palma matches, which may or may not be the same setup as the Winchester ad was concerned with. We do not know how much of the winner’s rounds went into what size “bullseye.” My knowledge of long range high power competition comes out of books only.
My limited understanding of “bullseye” means everything within the black scoring rings.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
That is not to low rate the shooter or the Winchester bull gun. Anybody who can dope wind and control trigger well enough to put 90 consecutive rounds from a Super Thirty into 44 inches at 1000 yards is no ordinary mortal.
However, I would argue that the accomplishment is almost completely attributable to the skill of the Rifleman, not the inherent accuracy of the rifle.
A rifle capable of 2 MOA can deliver 20 inch groups at 1000 yards. If the rifleman can keep center on the target, that is more than sufficient.
My experience with the Model 70 bull gun has consisted of picking one up at a DGCA show and wondering how long I could remain on my elbows while holding the thing in firing position. Not long.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Zeb-
As long as I’m doing some quick “Google-Fu”…. I found this article from the NRA Shooting Sports USA…
https://www.ssusa.org/content/the-wimbledon-cup/
In it is a brief description of the target that Ben Comfort shot at to win the Wimbledon Cup in 1935. The Wimbledon match consisted of 20-shots (plus two sighting-in shots) fired at 1000 yards with any rifle (telescopic sights were permitted). Comfort used a 300 H&H Magnum rifle built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester barrel and a 5X scope. The barrel was one of the first 28-inch Extra Heavy contour barrels in 300 MAGNUM made by Winchester.
The 1935 Wimbledon match used the “V” target, which had a 36-inch five-count bulls eye and a smaller 20-inch V-ring. We’d call it the “X” ring on a small bore target with ten scoring rings; the “V” and “X” representing Roman numerals. Comfort’s winning score was 100 (20×5)-14V. So he hit the 36-inch circle 20 consecutive times, of which 14 were inside of 20-inches. I believe that, to even be visible at 1000-yards, both the 54-inch 4-ring and inner 36-inch 5-ring of the “V” target were black, as on the “C” target I mentioned above.
What’s interesting to me, as an aside, is that in 1935 Winchester was making the M54 “Sniper’s Match” rifle. This was the forerunner to the M70 Bull Gun and had a 26-inch Extra Heavy barrel (same as the bull gun contour just 2-inches shorter) in 30 GOV’T’06. The Model 54 receiver as never adapted to the longer H&H cartridges, so Comfort’s Wimbledon rifle had to be built on a 1917 Enfield action with a Winchester 300 MAGNUM Bull Gun barrel…
Here’s a pic of Tedk’s M54 Sniper’s Match rifle for comparison to the M70 Bull Gun.
I’m sure Comfort’s exploits added impetus to Winchester’s decision to market the M70 Bull Gun in 1937 in 300 H&H MAGNUM as well as 30 GOV’T’06…
As for what they were using for a target in Peekskill NY in 1938, they don’t say… But if Sam Tekulsky’s score for the 100 shot match was (99)x5 plus (1)x4 as it says in the ad, it was probably the “C” target with no “V’ ring. So (99) consecutive shots into a 36-inch circle at 1000 yards would be my guess.
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
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