Bryan Austin said
You guys know more than I do on the 44 WCF Milbank cartridge. The only thing I ever recall seeing in the article was the mention of the Milbank primer itself, not the 44 WCF cartridge.

 

The paper patch cartridge Anthany posted, I have never seen before. Is that a 44 WCF?

  

Bryan, I’m not so sure that I can be included in you’re statement about knowing more, as a lot of my information came from a lot of you’re previously posted information along with others.

The paper patch cartridge that I posted, was indeed at the forefront, according to Paul Foster, and possibly one of the first, being a paper patch cartridge from his documented collection. Paul had this cartridge as a C.F. ,44-40, (.44 WCF.), cartridge with the earl Milbank copper primer. The question is in my mind, at least to me, was it possibly tried before the non paper patched cartridge that you’re talking about, or after? We will probably never know, as stated earlier, as Winchester was experimenting with four different patent designs, during this problematic primer issue, mainly with the tapered cone shaped Milbank primer falling out, from my understanding.

Other cartridges have been know to be found with a Milbank primer from that time period, and documented by other well known cartridge collectors, just in different calibers.

As far as the time line, it is pretty well documented with the invention of the model 1873 rifle, and the delay in shipment of the first several firearms, toward the end of the first year of that model designation 1873, I’ve read different numbers as to how many we’re actually mfg. and shipped in conjunction with the Gardner primer, taking place of the problematic, Milbank primer.

Anthony

Brady, I’m in agreement with you on the two known cartridges with the Milbank primer in the .44WCF caliber.

You seem to be one of the most experienced here and as a member of the IAA, any thoughts on the possible value on these. The only thing that I ever saw, or heard, was what was posted earlier, as to the auction of one of the cartridges going for, $5,000.00 Grand years ago. I have no knowledge of what the latest information, on the other cartridge went for, or where the un patched 2nd one might be.

I remember seeing a picture of a Milbank primed, .50 cal cartridge, and a .43 Spanish. can’t remember others at this time, although I remember seeing a list of cartridges in different calibers being possible Milbank primed, but I would have to run across that list again to refresh my old memory bank. Something else to think about laying in bed at night! LOL!

Anthony

Anthony said
You seem to be one of the most experienced here and as a member of the IAA, any thoughts on the possible value on these. The only thing that I ever saw, or heard, was what was posted earlier, as to the auction of one of the cartridges going for, $5,000.00 Grand years ago. I have no knowledge of what the latest information, on the other cartridge went for, or where either one might be.

My understanding is that said cartridge sold in or around 1958 at auction for $5,000.00. If you took that into with inflation, It would be over $55,000.00 today. That is if that is the right date, right auction and right cartridge being referred to, etc. but I’m not certain of this. I doubt you would get that today for it in my humble opinion. 

But would imagine with something like this, its a Sellers Market! And may the best man win.

The only other specific information I know was relayed to me by Dan Shuey. He called the previously shown paper patched Milbank primed 44wcf cartridge as “the 1st Model”. And that it came from the Foster collection and that Foster had one, the only known one. Bill Woodin bought the Foster Collection in the mid-late 1960s. Bill kept the military & law enforcement related items and sold the remainder. Jim Tillinghast got the patched 44WCF. Dan stated he saw that cartridge at his house in 1995 or 96, and knew of it current whereabouts but didn’t relay that to me before his passing. Which I didn’t bother asking Dan who had it, as I knew I likely wouldn’t be able to obtain it. I just wanted a nice clear photo of it.

Dan also noted “the 2nd Model” also had a Milbank primer but no patch. My understanding is that it “may have” been a more commonly produced cartridge, all things considered taking into account being made for a few months or so in 1874 and possibly made with few thousands round of production. If that is the case. But who would know such a thing for certain? Reportedly some empty Milbank primed cases have been recovered from out of the ground at the site of the Battle of Little Big Horn. I have no idea if that is true either. I believe one of these “2nd Model” cartridges, as Shuey put it, was sold at auction within the last decade or so. But I don’t know which auction or the hammer price. It likely is the other cartridge pictured on the forum.

Other than a .45 Colt Milbank primed cartridge, all the other calibers I know of are military calibers. .58 Gov, .50 Gov, .43 Spanish, all being loose singles and I don’t recall any being multiples or in a full / partial box. Or a full box marked with the Winchester name.

I once read a hypothesis that Winchester could of produced them (Milbank Primed Cases) in all the center-fire calibers shown in the 1875 Catalog. But believe this would be too late in my opinion, as O.F. Winchester was granted his primer patent in July 1874. Which people often overlook that he “Applied For” his patent on November 6th, 1873. I don’t see why at the time of the printing of the 1875 catalog they would still be using Milbank primers, when Oliver had his own primer patent. 

I imagine it could of been produced in center-fire calibers in development / use between 1870 to 1874. Which I don’t know what it would be in, other than the 44 WCF & 45 Colt and these few military calibers that are known. I often wonder if Winchester merely produced a few hundred boxes of Milbank primed 44WCFs before switching to Oliver’s primer. Imagine they were all shot up in the year 1874. Any factory production records for ammunition that far back apparently don’t exist any longer. That is until they show up in someone’s collection.

tim tomlinson said
Brady, and others for what its worth–we all lost a lot of info when Dan Shuey passed.  He maintained info in his brain that I think never got written down.  Pity.  From my exposure to him I would put great faith into what he had to say!  Tim

  

I was very sad when I heard that Dan passed away.  He was such a good guy and a wealth of knowledge.  I believe the last time he and I had a conversation was at the 2023 Cody Show.  Sudden passing’s like this shows how important ones research may be and one should think about how it may be passed on.

Anthony said

I didn’t realize the .44WCF patched Cartridge went at auction that long ago in 1958! I just assumed it was later than that. 

  

I found mention of the auction from a 1993 IAA Journal article. I recall another article earlier from the 1970s mentioning a cartridge for $5,000.00 and can’t find it. But with that said, I’m not certain the cartridge mentioned is said 44 WCF Milbank primed cartridge. But wouldn’t necessarily doubt it. Here is the article page.

If it is not this cartridge is likely the earlier .46 /.47 O.F. Winchester Central-Fire cartridge, a internally primed center fire. Which I believe also went for a lot of money as far back as the 1960s and came from the Paul Foster collection. Which there are also only a few of these known to exist. 

It is interesting to me to think that a single rare early Winchester cartridge went for $5,000.00 in 1958. When people were buying 1 of 1000 rifles for the same price. Personally I’d rather have the rifle over any said cartridge and it appears the value on return on investment maybe more situated towards the rifles. Especially looking at what 1 of 1000s go for today. But I suppose it just all depends on where your interests are.

Bryan Austin said
The top article looks to be the 44 Henry percussion patent previously mentioned. Without full photos and data, it is certainly hard to interpret.  

Yeah I see what you mean. Hard to imagine in 1958 paying $5,000.00 for this little piece of metal and its technically not even a cartridge.

Go figure!