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steve004 said
Is a factory letter that does not list every single feature of the rifle, “incorrect” in the minds of collectors here?
Most of the time some of the standard features of the rifle are not mentioned in the letter. When not mentioned you have to assume they were standard and not built differently.
Letters are just tools. I have a 5′ tall tool box in the garage. I use the tool or tools that suit the job. It never hurts to have a lot of tools.
Chuck said
Most of the time some of the standard features of the rifle are not mentioned in the letter. When not mentioned you have to assume they were standard and not built differently.
Letters are just tools. I have a 5′ tall tool box in the garage. I use the tool or tools that suit the job. It never hurts to have a lot of tools.
Yes indeed. I didn’t state what I meant correctly. I was referring to the scenario where every single special order feature isn’t mentioned.
RickC said
Not to me. The letter is just a another source or reference of confirmation. Any details are better than none, specifically the calibre.RickC
I appreciate your comments. It is interesting to know what other collectors think.
I was just thinking about a letter I have here that I don’t like. The letter came from Cody but it is on a Marlin M1894. It’s a simply beautiful .44/40 rifle with half octagon barrel and half magazine. It’s very early (shipped in 1894) with matching numbers on upper tang and buttstock. Very top condition with lovely full coverage original deep blue and faded case color. Not a hint of anything that would suggest it isn’t in the exact condition it was when it left the factory. A joy to own. When I was lettering a series of rifles, I threw this one’s number in. Letters in .38-40. There is not a notation for the magazine – which suggests it was shipped with a full magazine. The rifle is the same as when I bought it… except now I have that letter…. I realize the fault is mine. The value of the letter as a tool often comes before the purchase is made, not after. This is a great example of a rifle that I would much prefer was made after the letterable range. Maybe the lesson here is, if you didn’t get a letter before you bought it, don’t get one after 
steve004 said
RickC said
Not to me. The letter is just a another source or reference of confirmation. Any details are better than none, specifically the calibre.RickC
I appreciate your comments. It is interesting to know what other collectors think.
I was just thinking about a letter I have here that I don’t like. The letter came from Cody but it is on a Marlin M1894. It’s a simply beautiful .44/40 rifle with half octagon barrel and half magazine. It’s very early (shipped in 1894) with matching numbers on upper tang and buttstock. Very top condition with lovely full coverage original deep blue and faded case color. Not a hint of anything that would suggest it isn’t in the exact condition it was when it left the factory. A joy to own. When I was lettering a series of rifles, I threw this one’s number in. Letters in .38-40. There is not a notation for the magazine – which suggests it was shipped with a full magazine. The rifle is the same as when I bought it… except now I have that letter…. I realize the fault is mine. The value of the letter as a tool often comes before the purchase is made, not after. This is a great example of a rifle that I would much prefer was made after the letterable range. Maybe the lesson here is, if you didn’t get a letter before you bought it, don’t get one after
As a Cody member you can get the info really quick. Sometimes the same day. If you aren’t a member you should be.
Online
Steve I don’t know how familiar You are with With Marlins factory letters, but back in the days of Col. William Brody, Dick Patterson , and several other hard core Marlin Collectors, We had Many discussions of this fact and it was pretty much determined if one got a “factory ” letter that actually matched a gun it was a big plus, in other words there was a lot of mis-information in those letters when available, when available at all. I once had a ’93 that was Ulrich relief engraved and signed, with several other features but the only thing mentioned in the letter was 28″ bbl. and chkrd p.g. stock. So I wouldn’t write Your gun off as being incorrect, if it looks legit it probably is.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said
Steve I don’t know how familiar You are with With Marlins factory letters, but back in the days of Col. William Brody, Dick Patterson , and several other hard core Marlin Collectors, We had Many discussions of this fact and it was pretty much determined if one got a “factory ” letter that actually matched a gun it was a big plus, in other words there was a lot of mis-information in those letters when available, when available at all. I once had a ’93 that was Ulrich relief engraved and signed, with several other features but the only thing mentioned in the letter was 28″ bbl. and chkrd p.g. stock. So I wouldn’t write Your gun off as being incorrect, if it looks legit it probably is.
Henry – thanks for sharing your experience and positive perspective. That Ulrich engraved Marlin ’93 you had sounds like an impressive rifle.
November 7, 2015
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Henry Mero said
Steve I don’t know how familiar You are with With Marlins factory letters, but back in the days of Col. William Brody, Dick Patterson , and several other hard core Marlin Collectors, We had Many discussions of this fact and it was pretty much determined if one got a “factory ” letter that actually matched a gun it was a big plus, in other words there was a lot of mis-information in those letters when available, when available at all. I once had a ’93 that was Ulrich relief engraved and signed, with several other features but the only thing mentioned in the letter was 28″ bbl. and chkrd p.g. stock. So I wouldn’t write Your gun off as being incorrect, if it looks legit it probably is.
Did you ever have a chance to converse with Col. Brophy, Henry? I can imagine it was a bit tedious but well worth the effort.
Mike
Here’s another 1894 in my collection that has two R&R’s, but unfortunately does not provide the details. I sure wish it were in it’s original 25-35 caliber and had the original sights!! Regardless, it’s still a beautiful rifle (and pre-1899) and am proud to own it.
Don
deerhunter said
I too have an 1894 rifle with the unusual detailed R&R:
Don
Don – very nice rifle. I love the configuration. It’s quite the blessing that the letter provides the detail of the R&R. I wonder what the rhyme and reason for some having it and some not. My experience is the majority do not have any detail.
I’m wondering if the ledger was the only inventory system they had so if they needed to send out a particular gun they went through the warehouse ledger to see if they had one or they had another system in the office to keep track. if they had two systems was one the main record system and then did they have to periodically reconcile them to each other. But the reason they didn’t describe R&R’s is they didn’t need to since the gun was going back to the owner. The description of work done would have been on the order in the office. The R&R’s that did get a description, I would guess the warehouse was slow that day and had nothing better to do or the clerk was feeling energetic that day. I have run across a entry in the ledger that said in the remarks column “See order for description” but there was a description of caliber, barrel shape and such in the normal columns.
bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
steve004 said
Don – very nice rifle. I love the configuration. It’s quite the blessing that the letter provides the detail of the R&R. I wonder what the rhyme and reason for some having it and some not. My experience is the majority do not have any detail.
Thanks Steve. I have to admit the detailed R&R on the letter was the first I’ve seen for a model 1894. I normally don’t get too excited about the round barrels, but the rifle is in great condition and I just had to have it for the “rarity” of the letter.
Don
deerhunter said
Thanks Steve. I have to admit the detailed R&R on the letter was the first I’ve seen for a model 1894. I normally don’t get too excited about the round barrels, but the rifle is in great condition and I just had to have it for the “rarity” of the letter.
Don
I wouldn’t mind the round barrel at all. Not at all. Again, I am in the minority.
Yes Steve I conversed with Col. Brophy many times in the early days of the Marlin Collector Assn. He was a very well informed man, a gentleman and a pleasure to talk with. He always seemed quite enthralled with the concept of My wife and I,(being Canadian), driving all the way from Ontario to Denver Co. in a 1957 Ford , just to attend a Marlin sponsored show and a meeting of the newly formed club, at the time We had 32 charter members 29 ‘Mericans and 3 Canucks. There are only 5 of the charter members left, 2’Mericans and the 3 Canucks. He always went out of His way to help educate Me (and others) on the Marlin firearms. We met in New Haven in 1975 and He accompanied My wife and I on a guided tour of the Marlin factory and museum which was still there at the time. Col. Bill talked the receptionist at the factory into babysitting Our 7 year old son while We took the tour. There probably would never have been a Marlin Collectors Assn. if not for the efforts put forth by Col. William Brophy.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Alot of the Take Down guns will have a R&R due to the public not knowing how to properly take down the rifles and breaking the extractor off among other problems. Winchester started adding hang tags that explained how to properly take down the firearm.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Henry Mero said
Yes Steve I conversed with Col. Brophy many times in the early days of the Marlin Collector Assn. He was a very well informed man, a gentleman and a pleasure to talk with. He always seemed quite enthralled with the concept of My wife and I,(being Canadian), driving all the way from Ontario to Denver Co. in a 1957 Ford , just to attend a Marlin sponsored show and a meeting of the newly formed club, at the time We had 32 charter members 29 ‘Mericans and 3 Canucks. There are only 5 of the charter members left, 2’Mericans and the 3 Canucks. He always went out of His way to help educate Me (and others) on the Marlin firearms. We met in New Haven in 1975 and He accompanied My wife and I on a guided tour of the Marlin factory and museum which was still there at the time. Col. Bill talked the receptionist at the factory into babysitting Our 7 year old son while We took the tour. There probably would never have been a Marlin Collectors Assn. if not for the efforts put forth by Col. William Brophy.
Henry – thanks for sharing your experience. Those are surely wonderful memories. Bill Brophy sounds like a great guy and I wish I had a chance to meet him or at least talk with him. I think for Savages, Roe Clark was the parallel to Col. Brophy. I at least had correspondence with him way back. I can’t think of a parallel person for Winchester? I know George Madis is a common name associated with Winchester. Going way back, I spoke with him many times on the phone (always long conversations) and I sent one rifle to him for his opinion. But, I am not recalling that George was ever associated with Winchester. I seem to recall he had interviewed many old former Winchester employees for his books. He was always a nice guy to talk to.
Good chance here for me to give a nod to Bert Hartman & John Madl. It’s not an old story from me because I only started out doing this in the past few yrs but I have leaned on Bert many many times & also John for answers, evaluations, & opinions.
I have a lot of knowledgeable collector friends like Henry here & others now through buying & selling, but I’ve built a rapport with Bert & John that I respect and appreciate their Winchester knowledge. They are both no stranger to the CFM & that certainly doesn’t hurt either.
I’m sure down the road in 20-30yrs I can tell this story and it will be “remember when”.
RickC
RickC said
Good chance here for me to give a nod to Bert Hartman & John Madl. It’s not an old story from me because I only started out doing this in the past few yrs but I have leaned on Bert many many times & also John for answers, evaluations, & opinions.
I have a lot of knowledgeable collector friends like Henry here & others now through buying & selling, but I’ve built a rapport with Bert & John that I respect and appreciate their Winchester knowledge. They are both no stranger to the CFM & that certainly doesn’t hurt either.
I’m sure down the road in 20-30yrs I can tell this story and it will be “remember when”.RickC
Absolutely, both Bert and John deserve kudos. I was mainly trying to think of someone like Bill Brophy who worked for Marlin for years.
For sure Steve004. I didn’t want to hijack the thread & great story from Henry, just thought the timing was right to tell my vintage story lol.
RickC
RickC said
For sure Steve004. I didn’t want to hijack the thread & great story from Henry, just thought the timing was right to tell my vintage story lol.RickC
Rick –
I think hijacked threads are great. I love all the directions threads can take. I am here for other people’s stories, opinions, knowledge, experiences and so on. Threads are like curvy roads – you don’t know what’s around the next bend!
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