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Yes, the whole, will it letter? What does the letter mean? Does the return and repair notation mean (fill in the blank). Is the letter a fake? Or, “I sure wish I’d never ordered that letter.” On and on. But there are another entire group of vintage Winchesters where all this is wiped off the table. Many, many hundreds of thousands of them! Yes, I am referring to those serial number ranges where the factory are gone. Just in ’92 and ’94 – hundreds of thousands of each model.
Here are two of mine. Both are .32 specials (of course). These also serve the double duty of showing my preferred buttplate styles.
The first one is a carbine with pistol grip checkered stocks, hard rubber shotgun buttplate (with widow’s peak), 3/4 length magazine and the Lyman receiver sight:
Here’s the second example. Another ’94 Carbine. .32 Special of course 
This is another pistol grip checkered carbine, full magazine, .32 special sight. Winchester recoil pad. Again, not in the letterable range. You are free to make up your mind about it based on your own evaluation. I’ve had it (and the other two) many years. It’s fun to shoot and I like it a lot. I really can’t see myself parting with the three .32 specials I’ve shown today.
Steve, Before you buy you have to have all available information, the letter is information that helps you. Why would you pass on it? These Winchesters are expensive and a collector needs all the help you can get. I have guns that are out of letter range and I sometime wonder how they were configured originally. Those guns are easy to change configuration. T/R
TR – You are talking about an ideal scenario. I know some collectors who only buy letterable rifles. They are poised to make the phone confirmation if they find something of interest at a show – and this can work slick. I’m just saying that it doesn’t always work out in an ideal way. The one example I gave – does the return and repair notation explain some change from the original shipment? Look at how often important features (e.g. engraving) are often not mentioned in the letter. Look at how often many of us will agree what we are seeing in the letter is surely an error in the ledger. The examples (and many others) are not rare occurrences. The letter stuff is often not what it’s cracked up to be.
Online
Steve,
Do I have the serial numbers of your carbines for the research survey?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Steve,
Do I have the serial numbers of your carbines for the research survey?
Bert
Bert –
Yes you do. I’ve had them a while 🙂
steve004 said
Look at how often important features (e.g. engraving) are often not mentioned in the letter. Look at how often many of us will agree what we are seeing in the letter is surely an error in the ledger. The examples (and many others) are not rare occurrences. The letter stuff is often not what it’s cracked up to be.
Steve, I have to disagree, there are errors but not as often as you think. The letter is a starting point, guns change over time and Winchester didn’t do it! Old surveys are very revealing and worth the time to check out before you buy. I have never done anything in my life that’s “worry-free”. If you can’t stand the risk, buy new with a warranty. T/R
TR said
Steve, I have to disagree, there are errors but not as often as you think. The letter is a starting point, guns change over time and Winchester didn’t do it! Old surveys are very revealing and worth the time to check out before you buy. I have never done anything in my life that’s “worry-free”. If you can’t stand the risk, buy new with a warranty. T/R
TR – your suggestion is logical. It’s just that I really dislike new guns. I find it ironic how some top conditioned collector rifles that are out there – letter 100% – but they are fakes (i.e. clones).
I enjoy collecting. It’s been my only hobby my whole life. There’s an element to our hobby that I don’t find enjoyable. That part is the deception, greed, fakery and the like. I’ve seen this aspect grow immensely during the last 50 years.
TR said
Steve, Before you buy you have to have all available information, the letter is information that helps you. Why would you pass on it? These Winchesters are expensive and a collector needs all the help you can get. I have guns that are out of letter range and I sometime wonder how they were configured originally. Those guns are easy to change configuration. T/R
I agree, not a ‘neurosis thing’ but a great tool, why not take advantage of it. I collect antique Winchesters and all I’ve purchased to date “letter”.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
November 7, 2015
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Oh, no! Not another 32 Special fan!
Mike
steve004 said
Here’s the second example. Another ’94 Carbine. .32 Special of courseI really can’t see myself parting with the three .32 specials I’ve shown today.
Yes a 32 fan…I think I’m going to like steve004
Rick C(AG)
The June calender picture is of a beautiful 1876 Winchester SN 3254. I happen to have 1876 Winchester SN 3267. It
is a plain vanilla tired old gun. I got it lettered and it says “TRIGGER : SET”. It does not have a set trigger. I called museum and was told that the set trigger had been removed and replaced with plain trigger. If my wife went to sell this after I am gone the buyer would question if somebody had altered it when in fact it left factiry that way. I told the man at the museum that info would have been nice in the letter. The finsh is varnish which is chipping, the rifling is thin, very little pitting. With .456 lead bullets it keyholes at 100 yards, with jacketed bullets it gets about 5″ pattern at 100 yards (being shot by 81 year old eyes). Foolish or not I paid $3200 for it (don’t tell my wife).
[email protected] said
The June calender picture is of a beautiful 1876 Winchester SN 3254. I happen to have 1876 Winchester SN 3267. Itis a plain vanilla tired old gun. I got it lettered and it says “TRIGGER : SET”. It does not have a set trigger. I called museum and was told that the set trigger had been removed and replaced with plain trigger. If my wife went to sell this after I am gone the buyer would question if somebody had altered it when in fact it left factiry that way. I told the man at the museum that info would have been nice in the letter. The finsh is varnish which is chipping, the rifling is thin, very little pitting. With .456 lead bullets it keyholes at 100 yards, with jacketed bullets it gets about 5″ pattern at 100 yards (being shot by 81 year old eyes). Foolish or not I paid $3200 for it (don’t tell my wife).
Over the past several decades, I’ve seen more examples than I can count where the factory letter has provided complication vs. clarification. This seems another example. By the way, it sounds like this rifle could be counted on to shoot a deer at 100 yards. Sounds like the shooter can be counted on too 🙂
[email protected] said I happen to have 1876 Winchester SN 3267. It is a plain vanilla tired old gun. I got it lettered and it says “TRIGGER : SET”. It does not have a set trigger. I called museum and was told that the set trigger had been removed and replaced with plain trigger.
Does the tang have the cuts for the set trigger? If it just has the plain trigger and the serial number is good, it has to be the way it left the factory. It was quite common for a set trigger to fail, and need repair or they would just convert it back to a plain trigger to eliminate the chance.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I find no evidence of cuts for set trigger on this 1876 Winchester. I compared it to my 1885 with a single set trigger and they are not alike. The SN on the bottom of the tang is 3267 and on the side of the tang are the nos. 102 and 1937. These nos. also appear on the top inletting of the stock so I know the stock and receiver match. Also, the letter states that this rifle reached the warehouse on Sept. 13, 1878 and was shipped out on July 29, 1880. They found no buyers for a set trigger in that time? Don
What I find surprising is the two sets of assemble numbers. Normally there is one or none at all. If it was returned to the factory they would X out the old number and stamp a new one. I would say it went back and was changed but the old number was not X’d out. You should also see the numbers under the butt plate at the toe.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
steve004 said
Over the past several decades, I’ve seen more examples than I can count where the factory letter has provided complication vs. clarification. This seems another example. By the way, it sounds like this rifle could be counted on to shoot a deer at 100 yards. Sounds like the shooter can be counted on too 🙂
I know of no process that’s perfect, and I would bet that the % of Cody Letter error is VERY SMALL compared to the overall over the years.
The Cody letter is just one tool (although a very good one) to be used where applicable with others in authenticating Winchesters.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
I just checked and there are no additional nos. under the crescent butt plate nor the end of the stock. Regarding letters, I also have a letter for my 1885 sporting rifle. The letter states all correct info except “TRIGGER: PLAIN”. This rifle has a single set trigger which I think is original to the rifle but I have no proof. Strange that both letters are erroneous regarding triggers.
Don
Don,
What is the serial number on your Model 1885 ? Can you post (or send me) a clear picture of the lower tang and action with the lever fully open ? Does the set trigger function properly ?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I saw a very nice first model 1873 yesterday, SN 3680 with 30 inch octagon barrel and set trigger. It letters as a 30 inch round barrel with set trigger. So a buyer would be wondering was the warehouse ledger in error? Or did someone switch out the lower tang? My good friend win4575 mentioned checking the contour, fit and finish of the lower tang.
So, fellow collectors, here is a classic case of a gun that does not letter. What do you think? Round up the usual suspects?
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
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