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Attached are photos of my museum letters and my 1876 and 1885 winchesters. The 1876 apparently was machined and fitted for a set trigger (note the slot behind the trigger) and subsequently was refitted for a plain trigger. That may explain the nos. 1937 and the 102 on the tang and the stock. The finish on this 1876 looks like varnish which is chipping. The 1885 is fitted with a single set trigger and a hammer which has the brass fly. This set trigger iworks but is fussy to adjust. Interestingly
this SN is 19371.
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I have rifles that I have letters for. For some, it’s a very neat addition. For others, not. I think a lot of nice rifles, that by most experienced collectors judge as correct, are spoiled by a letter that either has the wrong information, a lack of information or creates an enigma. Then everyone fusses over and speculates what the letter stated or didn’t state. And the owner is left with having to come up with an explanation or, “story” when he sells it. The example Bill gives above, as well as the other examples provided, are never found in some of the other genre’s of rifles I collect (i.e. there are no surviving factory records). I’m not making a case against the factory information, I’ve just seen too many examples over the years where people get all twisted up on what the letter says – and good rifles end up getting a raw deal. I will concede this does help keep boredom away.
If it’s a letter or no sale, a fella is gonna miss out on a lot of nice guns. Just need to be diligent in assessing it’s authenticity.
RickC
[email protected] said
The 1885 is fitted with a single set trigger and a hammer which has the brass fly.
If the fly is brass, it’s a non-factory replacement.
Hear a lot of complaints about the SST, but ones I’ve used worked just fine.
steve004 said
I think a lot of nice rifles, that by most experienced collectors judge as correct, are spoiled by a letter that either has the wrong information, a lack of information or creates an enigma.
That’s exactly the case with a S&W I have, which has grips that were optional at the time, but aren’t recorded on the factory letter. From evidence I won’t go into, I’m SURE the grips were put there by the factory, but somehow it wasn’t recorded–which on this particular gun is about a $1000 omission.
[email protected] said
Attached are photos of my museum letters and my 1876 and 1885 winchesters. The 1876 apparently was machined and fitted for a set trigger (note the slot behind the trigger) and subsequently was refitted for a plain trigger. That may explain the nos. 1937 and the 102 on the tang and the stock. The finish on this 1876 looks like varnish which is chipping. The 1885 is fitted with a single set trigger and a hammer which has the brass fly. This set trigger works but is fussy to adjust. Interestingly this SN is 19371.
If your Model 1885 has a brass fly, it is not factory original, which would explain why it “fussy” to adjust. The fly should be steel. I am inclined to believe that the factory letter for your Model 1885 is correct in regards to it being manufactured with a Plain trigger. I suspect (based on the incorrect fly) that somebody other than Winchester converted it to a single set trigger. With the Model 1885, post factory modifications (upgrades) were relatively common practice.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I am glad to see the letter posted. That 76 is a example of the value of a letter, it states that it was changed at the factory explaining the cut in the lower tang and the duel assembly numbers. Without the letter the seller would have to invent a story to explain the slot, with the letter you just lay it under the gun when you put it on the table. T/R
TR said
I am glad to see the letter posted. That 76 is a example of the value of a letter, it states that it was changed at the factory explaining the cut in the lower tang and the duel assembly numbers. Without the letter the seller would have to invent a story to explain the slot, with the letter you just lay it under the gun when you put it on the table. T/R
I agree.
Considering the Cody letter very low margin for error, reasonable cost and especially how much these Winchesters cost I don’t understaand why anyone would not letter a letter-able rifle prior to purchase.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
TR said
I am glad to see the letter posted. That 76 is a example of the value of a letter, it states that it was changed at the factory explaining the cut in the lower tang and the duel assembly numbers. Without the letter the seller would have to invent a story to explain the slot, with the letter you just lay it under the gun when you put it on the table. T/R
I agree – it is VERY helpful that the letter explained what happened. However, in my experience it is very rare that letter actually, “explains” something. Good grief, how often do we see a return and repair notation with no explanation of what happened? As you correctly suggest, if the letter didn’t happen to, “explain” what happened, the seller would have to formulate some sort of story. And then we’re back to, “how much for just the gun and not the story?”
As I said, letters are great when it all falls into place, but there’s also a lot of nice (and original) guns out there that get short changed. Their tarnished reputation can lessen the pride in ownership and create a haggling toehold for the buyer when it comes time to sell.
I’m not just focusing on Winchesters. Clarence’s story about his S&W is another example.
Steve raises a good point. I have seen a rifle that had this for its shipping information:
Received in warehouse September 23, 1882
Shipped from warehouse on September 23, 1882
Returned by Burkhard December 1882
Shipped July 6, 1883 order # 5392
What we don’t know is:
Who was Burkhard and why was the rifle returned? No record of repairs. Maybe it was a demonstrator model for a salesman?
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
I have a few repair & return with no explanation of the repair work.
RickC
RickC said
I have a few repair & return with no explanation of the repair work.RickC
Sometimes the “R&R” speaks for itself…if you have ears to hear. For ex., I have an ’85 built as a .22 Short, not long afterwards took a “R&R” vacation, & now wears a .22LR brl with all the right markings; clear what was done. FAR from detracting from this gun in my estimation, the “R&R” adds to its history, because it can be deduced that the original buyer was unsatisfied with his Short (with good reason!) & went to the trouble of correcting his mistake.
Bill Hockett said
Steve raises a good point. I have seen a rifle that had this for its shipping information:Received in warehouse September 23, 1882
Shipped from warehouse on September 23, 1882
Returned by Burkhard December 1882
Shipped July 6, 1883 order # 5392What we don’t know is:
Who was Burkhard and why was the rifle returned? No record of repairs. Maybe it was a demonstrator model for a salesman?
Burkhard was a hunter that bought the gun and took it out West and missed a big Moose so when he came home he sent it back to Winchester and said it didn’t shoot straight and got his money back just like Cabela’s. 
I have seen entries like that before in the ledgers.
I look at a Winchester letter as a tool to help me decide if I’m going to buy a gun. If I like the gun, the price and it letters we have a deal. If it doesn’t letter and I still like the gun then I have to decide if the gun is worth what I going to pay knowing it does not letter and knowing it will never be worth what the gun would be worth if it did letter. You will always have guns that don’t letter clean either from the fault of Winchester or someones else’s aftermarket work. The Winchester letter will always be available so there isn’t much you can do about it. You can always buy guns that don’t have records and you then have to judge them by their own merits.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Burkhard was a hunter that bought the gun and took it out West and missed a big Moose so when he came home he sent it back to Winchester and said it didn’t shoot straight and got his money back just like Cabela’s.
Winchester, like every other mfgr., “aimed to please” in those days…up to a point! “Missing your moose,” or any similar gross incompetence, was beyond that point, I would guess. I think Bill Hocketts’s suggestion is much more plausible–that “Burkhard,” if not a company employee, was someone well enough known to the company that no further description of him was considered necessary.
Kevin Jones said
I agree.
Considering the Cody letter very low margin for error, reasonable cost and especially how much these Winchesters cost I don’t understaand why anyone would not letter a letter-able rifle prior to purchase.
Well said. When you get the information prior to purchase you can make a decision based on what you see and what the letter is going to say. No surprises! T/R
I once bought a 94 short rifle. It was 1918 DOM so no configuration details in the letter available.
Not saying it can’t be done, but it’s a little harder to fake one of the short rifles that has the reduced forestock(8 3/8 vrs 9 3/8) & rear sight dovetail an inch shorter.
I generally concur with TR on the value of the letter, but I can’t dismiss every 94 without it.
I based my purchase on the sellers reputation, condition, & price. Extreme high value pieces might be another story for me & only if lettered.
RickC
RickC said
I once bought a 94 short rifle. It was 1918 DOM so no configuration details in the letter available.
Not saying it can’t be done, but it’s a little harder to fake one of the short rifles that has the reduced forestock(8 3/8 vrs 9 3/8) & rear sight dovetail an inch shorter.
I generally concur with TR on the value of the letter, but I can’t dismiss every 94 without it.
I based my purchase on the sellers reputation, condition, & price. Extreme high value pieces might be another story for me & only if lettered.RickC
Rick in the beginning I relied on other collectors/dealers to help me out. But, you need to get to a point that you know if the gun feels right or not. The letter or search form is just one of the tools to assist in the process. Actually I still ask for help when I can. All the guns I own have letters if available. There was a time I quit bothering but I eventually got a package deal and lettered about a dozen at one time. No surprises, lucky me.
Bill Hockett said
Steve raises a good point. I have seen a rifle that had this for its shipping information:Received in warehouse September 23, 1882
Shipped from warehouse on September 23, 1882
Returned by Burkhard December 1882
Shipped July 6, 1883 order # 5392What we don’t know is:
Who was Burkhard and why was the rifle returned? No record of repairs. Maybe it was a demonstrator model for a salesman?
Bill,
In answer to your question, “Burkhard” was a Winchester retail store. They ordered and sold a lot of Winchester firearms over at least a 30-year time period. I have encountered at least a dozen different ledger entries in the Model 1885 records that have “Ret’d by Burkhard” written in the remarks column.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Another variant of the, “letter” phenomenon that I see frequently – seller’s advertise that a letter goes with the rifle – but they don’t show a picture of the letter. Often, their ad states, “all features verified by Cody.” In most these cases, the seller does actually have the letter, and it is often a legitimate (i.e. non-faked) letter. However, the rub comes in with the seller’s interpretation of the letter. So, you get the rifle, there’s something that doesn’t match the letter. You call the seller and ask him, and he says, “well yeah, that’s covered in the letter.” You ask where? He says, “that was changed when it was returned – the letter says returned on xx/xx/xxxx (but the letter continues no explanatory information).
I apologize for probably beating a dead horse. I am trying to provide examples of the many shades of grey with the letter phenomenon. Between letters sometimes having wrong information, missing or incomplete information and information subject to interpretation, it’s not as tidy as we would like. I can’t began to count all of the examples I’ve seen that fall into one or more of the categories I have mentioned.
I’m thinking right now of that M1876 1 of 1000 recently up for auction by RIA. It has a letter, but wait … the letter makes no notation of being a 1 of 1000… but wait… Mr. Hall knows of two other authentic rifles with the 1 of 1000 markings – that were not mentioned in the records… so…………… if two others weren’t recorded correctly, that makes this one correct? I’m going to go out and do some yard work – and forget about, “letters” for a while. 
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