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Thanks Bob. I had seen the one in the Madis book, but didn’t count it as REAL ‘One of one Thousand’. I was way out on the barrel lengths , thought they all had longer barrels. Eric
I would assume Madis would of verified it before putting it in his book.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Eric,
There is one third model in the Madis book but I have never checked how it letters but its serial 435498 and has a cheek piece. Madis says it was ordered by the Browning Brother. Its right at the end of the 73 section on page 206 in my book. In my survey I have 81 1 of 1000’s and 48 have standard length barrels
Bob
Bob-
You may (probably) already know this but #435498 was once in the John R. Woods Collection and is in Madis’ and Wilson’s Books. It is the only 38-40 caliber 1 of 1000 ever made. Wilson states it is 1 of only four 1of1000s in the Winchester Ledgers above the 68,000 range.
Other than the forementioned gun, I’ve never seen a genuine 1of1000s above the 45,000 range. I also have never checked to see how it letters.
Don’t know anyone else caught this, at the last Tulsa Show a guy had a FAKE 1of1000 with a 3rd model 20inch barrel in rough shape. He claimed it was the only “Short Rifle” 1of1000. I asked if he had a Letter for it. He kept digging through his stack of letters but couldn’t produce one on it.
Bob, I’ve only got 68 1of1000s in my survey, we will have to compare notes sometime.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick,
There are 7 above 68,000 five of them are third models.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
To add to the statistics, George W Stone states in “The Winchester 1873 Handbook” that: “These specially made and tested rifles had a set trigger, extra finish wood and extra finish metal parts as standard equipment.” He also states that “Records show that 136 of the one of one thousand were sold.” This is a 44 year old publication and many new sources of information have been uncovered since then but, if he is correct on the triggers, the so-called letter stated that the trigger was a plain one and the ledger entry clearly reads “Plain” under trigger. This should be proof positive that the “One of One Thousand” engraving is fake.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
There are 14 that letter with plain triggers.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Now this has got me scratching my head. A person listening to opinions/facts, in hopes of getting accurate information to evaluate a rifle, could easily be lead astray.
wolfbait said
Now this has got me scratching my head. A person listening to opinions/facts, in hopes of getting accurate information to evaluate a rifle, could easily be lead astray.
Really? Why don’t you drive on over to Jamestown and buy the that rifle from him? He has come down another $5K on the asking price in his latest relisting! In total, he has reduced his asking price from nearly $100K down to just $75K.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
If you wait a little while he’ll probably come up with a crate, hang tags and the original owners manual.
Bert H. said
Really? Why don’t you drive on over to Jamestown and buy the that rifle from him? He has come down another $5K on the asking price in his latest relisting! In total, he has reduced his asking price from nearly $100K down to just $75K.
Bert
Rather than getting adversarial, why don’t you just admit that you were wrong about there not being any 3rd model 1 of 1000s, if 1873man is correct. If 1873man is wrong, correct him. No need to get snarky toward me because you were wrong. Everyone can continue to learn.
1873man said
Maverick,There are 7 above 68,000 five of them are third models.
Bob
Bob,
I was only merely quoting what Wilson had stated, which we both know his book is not the most accurate, as it has a few fakes in it.
Does your above quote include the 3 Movie Guns?
wolfbait said
Now this has got me scratching my head. A person listening to opinions/facts, in hopes of getting accurate information to evaluate a rifle, could easily be lead astray.
I hope your joking. As its fairly obvious the Gunbroker 1of1000 is a FAKE! Its truly a shame someone took a nice $10 engraved gun and ruined it. Just because its a 30 year old fake doesn’t make it any better either.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
wolfbait said
Now this has got me scratching my head. A person listening to opinions/facts, in hopes of getting accurate information to evaluate a rifle, could easily be lead astray.I hope your joking. As its fairly obvious the Gunbroker 1of1000 is a FAKE! Its truly a shame someone took a nice $10 engraved gun and ruined it. Just because its a 30 year old fake doesn’t make it any better either.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Nope, not joking. I was referring to the misinformation given, which 1873man corrected, that said it had to be a fake because it did not have a set trigger or because it was 3rd model. Misinformation will cause people to incorrectly evaluate a gun. In the other thread referenced it was said this gun was sold 2003 by RIA. I wish someone could find that catalog listing. That may be illuminating.
I just finished entering the 132 that Gordon had listed in his book and I had one of the guns that “Hall” had noted in the ledger so I have 133 in the survey. The list in Gordons book is just the ones that are noted in the ledger as 1 of 1000
Barrel lengths: 24 inch 74, 26 inch 25, 28 inch 21, 30 inch 13
barrel shape: Half octagon 7, octagon 121, Round 5
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I just finished entering the 132 that Gordon had listed in his book and I had one of the guns that “Hall” had noted in the ledger so I have 133 in the survey. The list in Gordons book is just the ones that are noted in the ledger as 1 of 1000Barrel lengths: 24 inch 74, 26 inch 25, 28 inch 21, 30 inch 13
barrel shape: Half octagon 7, octagon 121, Round 5
Bob
“The list in Gordons book is just the ones that are noted in the ledger as 1 of 1000” What ledger are you referring to?
The Winchester warehouse ledgers.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
The Winchester warehouse ledgers.Bob
So, are there some legitimate 1 of 1000s that are not in the ledger and would not letter as being 1 of 1000s.
Apparently there are. When the Jimmy Stewart movie was coming out the movie company came out with a promotion that the first 20 people that could product proof they had a 1 of 1000 would get a new Winchester 94. This brought out many 1 of 1000’s and some were not listed in the ledgers as such. These guns were sent in and were examined and when they were authenticated the ledger was amended. The one I had in my survey and not in the Gordon book was noted “1 of 1000 per T. Hall”. It comes down to who you believe is right. The original ledger entries that we know are not perfect or someone 80 years later looking at a used gun. Now when this was happening in the 50’s, 1 of 1000’s were not worth much so there was not a real incentive to fake them but after the movie is when they started their climb in value.
But the one this thread is about is not real just from looking at the barrel.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks, that answers my original question. There could in fact be authentic 1 of 1000s that will not letter as such. I don’t care about this guy’s gun, I’m just trying to learn more about 1 of 1000s. I asked another question- Is picture 83 in his auction the actual Winchester ledger? If so, I can see how mistakes were made, difficult to read scribble. Are these copies of the actual ledger available when you get a factory letter?- I have never gotten a copy of the ledger with a letter, will they send it if you ask for it?.
wolfbait said
I asked another question- Is picture 83 in his auction the actual Winchester ledger? If so, I can see how mistakes were made, difficult to read scribble. Are these copies of the actual ledger available when you get a factory letter?- I have never gotten a copy of the ledger with a letter, will they send it if you ask for it?.
The picture you refer to is a copy of the ledger, but it is not full size, which makes it slightly more difficult to read. As for the entries being so-called “scribble”, they most definitely are not. They do require that you can read cursive hand writing. In the many many thousands of ledger entries that I have examined, 99.99% of them are very easy to read. In regards to receiving a copy of the ledger page entry with a factory letter, if you ask for it, and you are a CFM member, Jessica will usually oblige you.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Here is a sample of a typical ledger entry. The problem most guns will encounter is someone forgot to put the ditto marks in. In that case the person reading the ledger can’t assume. The gun I have and wanted to see how the ledger was written was number 97. Its a 73 in 22 with a Octagon barrel, set trigger, case hardened, checkered stock, pistol grip, 26″ barrel and then it has 2 extra barrels fitted with fancy checked forearms and complete magazines etc. The deal with this gun is it was not a takedown so you would have to unscrew the barrel to change it out and why would you need extra barrels complete with the hardware. After read hundreds of these entries you do learn the persons handwriting and it comes a lot easier to read but sometimes you come across abbreviations you don’t know.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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