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Should 1 of 1000 letter?
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August 5, 2017 - 12:35 am
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 If anyone is interested. r.l wilson’s book Winchester 1 of 1000 can be found at amazon for $40.00 , not bad mine cost me 75.00 10 years ago.

 

I think tFrownhis book was written long before he fell from grace.

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August 5, 2017 - 1:33 am
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steve004 said 
 So, is the net result that a rare, factory engraved, gold and nickel plated, checkered, pistol grip rifle (these features verified), now sits in a defiled state because some (yes, off center on the barrel flat) markings have been added?  

Yup.

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August 5, 2017 - 1:42 am
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steve004 said
So, is the net result that a rare, factory engraved, gold and nickel plated, checkered, pistol grip rifle (these features verified), now sits in a defiled state because some (yes, off center on the barrel flat) markings have been added?  

Yes, that is precisely the issue.  Some BEM (please ask me what that means in a PM) very ignorantly decided to try upgrading that rifle in an illicit attempt to make extra $$$ on it.  Frankly, I hope that the current owner/seller gets burned real hard on it.  The fact that he has already come down $20K on his listed price should be a screaming clue that he knows the truth.

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August 5, 2017 - 1:52 am
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Bert H. said

Yes, that is precisely the issue.  Some BEM (please ask me what that means in a PM) very ignorantly decided to try upgrading that rifle in an illicit attempt to make extra $$$ on it.  Frankly, I hope that the current owner/seller gets burned real hard on it.  The fact that he has already come down $20K on his listed price should be a screaming clue that he knows the truth.

Bert  

Ha!  Maybe he’s reading our posts about his fake guns.

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August 5, 2017 - 3:22 am
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Wincacher said

Ha!  Maybe he’s reading our posts about his fake guns.  

Maybe, and maybe not.  Either way, it is my sincere hope that he chokes & gags on this Winchester.  While I do not have any sympathy for him what-so-ever, I doubt that he had anything to do with the “enhancements” inflicted on that rifle.  That stated, his greed has gotten the upper hand on him in this deal.

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August 5, 2017 - 4:25 pm
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It bothers me that con artists are apparently able to make a good living among the firearms collector community, it’s bothered me enough that I’ve avoided collector firearms for a long time. Rest assured, this fake and others will be sold and the new owners will be extremely proud of their treasured “collectable” unless/until they learn what it truly is. Then the entire collector community gets an undeserved black eye. That’s why we need to expose these con artists and fake collectables for what they truly are. Not every buyer of a collectable firearm has the time to learn enough about the firearms they purchase to make an informed opinion so certain lowlifes will take advantage of the situation if possible, and they’ve gotten pretty good at it.

I feel pretty certain these lowlifes lurk on this board, hard to say if this guy is one of them. At any given time a few members and a few dozen guests are visiting here. Can’t rule out the possibility that some folks come here to learn how to take advantage of the situation. Nothing against guests as a group, personally I’d like to see more folks visit here and hopefully join the conversation….and post pics of their pretty Winchesters!

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August 5, 2017 - 6:45 pm
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Mike,

The con artists in our hobby have existed for almost as long as collectors have been collecting. They are able to take advantage (feed on) two things that persist within the collecting community; (1) ignorance of the subject matter (lack of knowledge); and (2) simple greed. As long as those two situations continue to exist, the con artist, flim-flam specialist, etc. will continue to thrive.

Fortunately, the internet is a two-way street, and the good people out there are able to find good information and resources… if they take the time to look for it. At the same time, the small number of bad people out there also use it to find their prey, and in some cases, the information that can be used to create better fakes. The low-life who is currently trying to sell that fake 1 of 1000 is one of them. For a short period of time, he was a registered member on the WACA forums. When I discovered who he really was, I revoked his membership. Does he still read this forum?… more than likely. He may even have a falsely registered user name (though I do try to look at each new user ID).

I agree with you in that we as a collecting community need to expose the bad element that exists among us. However, as you chop the head off of one snake, be aware that new snakes will often take its place.

Bert

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August 5, 2017 - 7:09 pm
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Bert, you and other folks on this board and elsewhere are doing good work in exposing this type of trickery. I keep a nice, sharp hoe handy when working in areas snakes may frequent and it works just as well on the second, third and fifth snake as it does on the first, if need be. Offerings like this one are good entertainment and even teaching tools if you know what to look for. Many things are implied and not quite what they appear to be. We’ve all gone to Dairy Queen for ice cream, right? Try finding it on the menu.

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August 7, 2017 - 6:34 am
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I collect antique Colt SAAs and have gotten good the past 50+ years at spotting alterations/fakes, of which there are many. I am interested in getting some good Winchesters, and am trying to learn the nuances. This gun appears to be as lettered, except for the 1 of 1000. I am trying to figure out how the well aged marking was placed in just the right spot. Was there that large of an open area on the barrel flat to put just the right size 1 of 1000 marking and border? The fact of it being a bit high on the flat is a question. The style appears correct, it seems that a faker with the skill to do this would not be so clumsy as to make it too high. If they were originally hand engraved, it seems that a workman 130 years ago could have made the same variation. Looking at 1 of 1000 markings, they do vary a bit in exact location on the barrel flat. Does the rest of the gun look correct? Box issues aside, he does have some very fine guns. He now has a consecutive numbered pair of deluxe 1886s for sale that I find interesting. Where else are you going to find those? He has several guns that tempt me, are they really all problem guns? What I like is that I live close enough, about 4 hours away, that I could pick a gun up, inspect it, and return it if I find flaws after close inspection. He apparently gives full refunds rather than have dissatisfied buyers and negative feedback. I would have him over a barrel there. Major auctions have higher selling prices, high buyers fees, shipping delays and costs, and no “return it if you do not like it” policy. This guy lives in a 3000 population town, and you could go right up to his house and speak with him to resolve an issue, but looking at his feedback that does not seem to be a problem. Again, looking at his auctions he has some very tempting guns, guns that are not available anywhere else around here. I, like many collectors, have the money to pay for what I want, even if the price may be bit high. But of course I do not want a gun that is not what it is represented to be, and has been fraudulently altered. To me, this gun is suspect because of the letter and other posters comments, and I have no interest in it. But I posted another 1 of 1000 that sold at RIA where a notation was made on the factory letter that the 1 of 1000 notation was added to the description in 1951 by the curator. That seems strange, but strange things happen, and I know of many errors in Colt ledgers/records. This is a nice gun, but could likely be just a nice gun that gives the appearance of a 1 of 1000. At the right, much lower price, even that would not be bad. Turnbull makes some, and they are very popular as representative pieces. I understand that this seller is persona non grata here, but if he does have some quality Winchesters I do not want to pass them up out of spite.

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August 7, 2017 - 9:45 am
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Hi    We don’t see a lot of ‘One of a Thousand’  1873 Winchesters in Australia, so could someone tell me how many were made in 3rd Models, and how many were made with 24 inch Barrels?   Why would one put photos of different rifles in a ‘For Sale Add’ ??   Thanks,  Eric

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August 7, 2017 - 1:21 pm
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Here are some photos of the fake 1 of 1000 vs. some photos of legitimate one culled from the internet:

Two closeups of the 1 of 1000 engraving1of1001.jpgImage Enlarger1of1002.jpgImage Enlarger

This photo is # 49 on the listing and is not the same gun as shown in the other photos1of1005.jpgImage Enlarger

These are legitimate examples of the 1 of 1000 engraving1of1006.jpgImage Enlarger1of1007.jpgImage Enlarger1of1008.jpgImage Enlarger1of1009.jpgImage Enlarger

(3rd photo above is a Model 1876)

The most obvious difference is that all the legitimate examples have an inlay band between the engraving and the receiver.

All the legitimate examples have the “1 of One Thousand” properly centered.

On the legitimate examples the scroll on the two flats adjacent to the top (toward the muzzle) ends fairly close to being even with that of the top.  The fake is way short here.

None of the genuine examples have engraving on the top of the receiver.

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August 7, 2017 - 2:09 pm
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Is picture 83 in his auction the actual Winchester ledger? If so, I can see how mistakes were made, difficult to read scribble. Are these copies of the actual ledger available when you get a factory letter?

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August 7, 2017 - 7:28 pm
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Eric Ryan said
Hi    We don’t see a lot of ‘One of a Thousand’  1873 Winchesters in Australia, so could someone tell me how many were made in 3rd Models, and how many were made with 24 inch Barrels?   Why would one put photos of different rifles in a ‘For Sale Add’ ??   Thanks,  Eric  

Eric,

In answer to your question, there were no 3rd Model  1 of 1000 rifles made.  Most of them had 24-inch barrels, as that was the standard length for the Model 1873. I can’t answer your last question.

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August 7, 2017 - 8:58 pm
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Hopefully anyone with this much money to spend on a rifle will have the good sense to do sufficient research to determine the true nature of this gun. Any alteration to this gun may have been done generations ago, and may have fooled many previous owners who did not have access to adequate research material. Out of curiosity, I hope some day we “hear the rest of the story” about this collection of guns he is selling.

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August 7, 2017 - 9:23 pm
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The “story” about this collection of guns he is selling is just a front for fraud and deceit.  But that’s just my opinion–though a common one.  I refuse to even look at his auctions. Most of his guns look reworked to me.  If they’re not reworked, he throws in a fake box and a bunch of other fake crap to jack up the price.  He has a pattern of buying, then adding a fake box, etc. and boasts “liquidating a prestigious collection.”  What a bunch of crap…For an example, read the below link:

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/selling-dads-old-guns-at-it-again/#p62318

Don

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August 7, 2017 - 9:46 pm
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This is quite an enterprise for a guy in a little 3,000 population town. I know serious long time collectors in his area and no one knows him or has dealt with him. Somehow he has stayed off the local radar.

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August 7, 2017 - 9:51 pm
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wolfbait said
This is quite an enterprise for a guy in a little 3,000 population town. I know serious long time collectors in his area and no one knows him or has dealt with him. Somehow he has stayed off the local radar.  

“Serious long time collectors” know better than to deal with this guy.  This seller preys on the newbie and uninformed and is quite good at it.

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August 7, 2017 - 11:52 pm
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Thanks Bert.  I just thought it was a bit unusual that this rifle was a 3rd. model in ‘One of One Thousand’.  Eric

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August 7, 2017 - 11:54 pm
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deerhunter said

“Serious long time collectors” know better than to deal with this guy.  This seller preys on the newbie and uninformed and is quite good at it.  

I understand that it is hard to cut through the animosity, but looking at his past and current auctions, he has some fine firearms. My point was that serious long time collectors that I know in his immediate area have never heard of him or had any contact with him locally. Usually guys who sell firearms like these are known to other dealers/collectors in the area.

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August 8, 2017 - 12:14 am
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Eric Ryan said
Hi    We don’t see a lot of ‘One of a Thousand’  1873 Winchesters in Australia, so could someone tell me how many were made in 3rd Models, and how many were made with 24 inch Barrels?   Why would one put photos of different rifles in a ‘For Sale Add’ ??   Thanks,  Eric  

 

Eric,

There is one third model in the Madis book but I have never checked how it letters but its serial 435498 and has a cheek piece. Madis says it was ordered by the Browning Brother. Its right at the end of the 73 section on page 206 in my book. In my survey I have 81 1 of 1000’s and 48 have standard length barrels

Bob

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