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model 1894, 2 barrel sets
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March 14, 2014 - 4:49 am
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Has anyone surveyed the number of model 1894’s (within the letterable range) that were ordered with 2 barrels?

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March 14, 2014 - 5:12 am
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Yes, the CFM surveyed the multi-barrel sets and published it in the ARMAX.

2-barrel sets = 114
3-barrel sets = 4

Bert

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March 14, 2014 - 6:35 am
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Bert H. said
Yes, the CFM surveyed the multi-barrel sets and published it in the ARMAX.

2-barrel sets = 114
3-barrel sets = 4

Bert

Thanks Bert, I know of a two barrel deluxe sn#468924, I wonder what the 114 extrapolates out to for all pre 64 94’s?
Al

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March 14, 2014 - 6:48 am
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Al,

That would be easy to figure out. All you need to accurately know is the ratio of sporting rifles to carbines produced between SN 353,999 until 1937 (SN 1158835 or 803,836 rifles) when the rifles were discontinued. Then you need the ratio of takedowns to solid frame guns for the same time period. And finally you will need to assume that the ratio of multiple barrel sets in the "letterable range" was consistent, or increased or decreased afterwards and you will end up with an extremely fuzzy number! Shouldn’t be a problem at all. (All that is in jest)

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March 14, 2014 - 7:11 am
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Should be 353,999 but, whats another 1,000 for ball park numbers. Laugh

Paul

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March 14, 2014 - 7:14 am
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twobit said
Al,

That would be easy to figure out. All you need to accurately know is the ratio of sporting rifles to carbines produced between SN 354,999 until 1937 (SN 1158835 or 803,836 rifles) when the rifles were discontinued. Then you need the ratio of takedowns to solid frame guns for the same time period. And finally you will need to assume that the ratio of multiple barrel sets in the "letterable range" was consistent, or increased or decreased afterwards and you will end up with an extremely fuzzy number! Shouldn’t be a problem at all. (All that is in jest)

Michael

My head’s spinning already.

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March 14, 2014 - 12:58 pm
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Well now, I can see at least some of you are starting to think like I do Wink

Al,

Based on my research survey, I believe that Sporting Rifle and Take Down Rifle production remained nearly constant out to serial number 800,000, which would indicate that approximately (265) multi-barrel sets were made up to that serial number.

For the all of the guns in the 800001 – 1158835 serial number range (approximately 359,000), the ratio of Carbines versus Sporting Rifles flip-flopped (180-degrees).

So, my WAG for the total number of multi-barrel Model 1894/94 rifles is (300) +/- 10%.

Bert

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March 14, 2014 - 3:54 pm
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SO what you guys are saying is that when I invent that time machine and go back to 1900 to buy Winchesters hoping to realize a nice profit in the present. I should be ordering

A model 1894 deluxe TD with a 26" a 18" and a 14" barrel set and all the fancies to go with them.

Got it on my list.

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March 14, 2014 - 4:35 pm
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Bert H. said
Well now, I can see at least some of you are starting to think like I do Wink

Al,

Based on my research survey, I believe that Sporting Rifle and Take Down Rifle production remained nearly constant out to serial number 800,000, which would indicate that approximately (265) were made up to that serial number.

For the all of the guns in the 800001 – 1158835 serial number range (approximately 359,000), the ratio of Carbines versus Sporting Rifles flip-flopped (180-degrees).

So, my WAG for the total number of multi-barrel Model 1894/94 rifles is (300) +/- 10%.

Bert

Bert,

Glad we have you to tackle stuff like this. Wow only about 300? I better start saving my money to buy it.

Al

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March 14, 2014 - 4:48 pm
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Should be 353,999 but, whats another 1,000 for ball park numbers. Laughing

Paul

Thanks Paul. I edited the post.

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March 14, 2014 - 5:30 pm
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Sure not a pile of them out there. See just as many made up sets as real ones it seems. If anybody does see a real nice multi barrel 1894 TD rifle, please let me know. I am still looking for one for my collection. I’d like to have that 5 barrel set in Bob Renneberg’s book!
Matt

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March 14, 2014 - 8:00 pm
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Matt,

That 5-barrel set is really cool. I had my hands on it at the Cody show several years ago, and I was able to get the owner and Bob R. in contact for the pictures. Shortly after they were featured in the book, the owner sold the set to Cabelas for $175K. Cabelas eventually sold it to a collector for something north of $190K. I suspect that it would take an offer of at least $200K to get them today.

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March 14, 2014 - 8:01 pm
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Bert – there is an article on multiple barrel Winchesters in the Winchester Collector, Volume 19 Number 1 (Winter) 1996. It has the serial numbers from the ARMAX survey and also discusses other models. I would very careful spending much money on a Model 94 with more than one barrel after 354,000 – I have seen quite a few going back 40 years and they are parts guns. About 5 years ago a guy had a 5 barrel set at the winter show in Las-Vegas – it was in a nice glass display case and he had a lot of people convinced it was authentic – you would have picked it apart in a heartbeat. It was clearly refinished and the wood looked like it came from 6 different trees!

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March 15, 2014 - 1:22 pm
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Bert H. said
Matt,

That 5-barrel set is really cool. I had my hands on it at the Cody show several years ago, and I was able to get the owner and Bob R. in contact for the pictures. Shortly after they were featured in the book, the owner sold the set to Cabelas for $175K. Cabelas eventually sold it to a collector for something north of $190K. I suspect that it would take an offer of at least $200K to get them today.

Bert

Wow, that’s a lot of money. I saw it in the book also.

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March 15, 2014 - 2:10 pm
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Burt Humphrey said
Bert – there is an article on multiple barrel Winchesters in the Winchester Collector, Volume 19 Number 1 (Winter) 1996. It has the serial numbers from the ARMAX survey and also discusses other models. I would very careful spending much money on a Model 94 with more than one barrel after 354,000 – I have seen quite a few going back 40 years and they are parts guns. About 5 years ago a guy had a 5 barrel set at the winter show in Las-Vegas – it was in a nice glass display case and he had a lot of people convinced it was authentic – you would have picked it apart in a heartbeat. It was clearly refinished and the wood looked like it came from 6 different trees!

In your opinion, what is the best way to tell the difference between an authentic 1894 two barrel set, from a made up set if it is outside of the letterable serial number range? Wood not matching? Odd caliber combinations? One round barrel, One octagon barrel?

Reason I ask is that I know a collector who has a Deluxe two barrel set. H checkered, deluxe wood, straight grip stock, with crescent butt, Serial # is 468924 as I mentioned above. Both barrels are 26" round, and half mag. One is a 32WS with the 32 ws smokeless sight, with type 3 barrel marking, and the other is 32-40 nickel steel barrel, with type 2 barrel marking, with a sporting rear 22b sight and 1A elevator, Forearm wood grain, color, finish, and wear are nearly identical on both. The wear on the take down rings are identical with most blue still present. It appears that the 32WS barrel has more use than the 32-40, as the bluing on the 32-40 barrel is a little nicer, but bluing on both are about 95+% coverage, as is the receiver.

Thanks,

Al

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March 15, 2014 - 7:26 pm
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Unless you have the records to confirm it, you never know for sure. That is why I would not spend a lot of money on a multiple barrel 94 or any other model unless it lettered. There is so much stuff out there that is not right because the guns have gotten so expensive. Bert indicated there may be about 300 total multiple barrel 94’s – the old Collector article I mentioned estimated about the same. However, only 118 can be verified. No doubt, there are correct guns are out there that are too late to letter but when you have seen some parts guns as I have you become more careful. If you are going to buy one that is too late to letter you want to have a good eye and have it verified by someone you trust that has knowledge and experience. In your post you mention a 94 two barrel set in 32 special and 32-40. It is interesting to note that of the 114 verifiable model 94’s with two barrels, none had that combination. The 32-40 was black powder and the 32 special was smokeless so it seems like a strange combination to me. I imagine Bert will have some words of wisdom on this – he knows a lot more about it than me. I just think you need to be careful with your hard earned money and remember there is no shortage of people with questionable ethics that like to see you part with your money. Remember Reagan’s statement about trust but verify – not bad advice.

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March 15, 2014 - 10:16 pm
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The mixing of black powder and smokeless powder barrels is really a non issue, as the majority of the factory multi-barrel sets were 30 WCF (smokeless) and 38-55 (black powder).

The first 2-barrel set with a 32 WS barrel was serial number 205702, with the other barrel being a 38-55.

There were (5) multi-barrel rifles made in 30 WCF & 32 WS, and (14) made in 32 WS & 38-55. None are listed in 32-40 & 32 WS, but it would not be a surprise if at least one was made.

With all of that stated,, I agree with Burt… be very careful when considering a multi-barrel set that can not be lettered.

Bert

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March 15, 2014 - 11:02 pm
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I figured we would get some good logic out this from Bert – he is right, just because the mixing of smokeless and black powder would not make sense to me, as you look at the ARMAX survey, there were lots of 30 WCF and 38-55 – also see some 25-35 with 32-40. As Bert confirmed there were no 32-40 and 32 Special combos so maybe if the gun we are talking about is right it is a rare one. The point is, given all the circumstances, I would have to be skeptical and would really want the gun looked at extensively before I plunked down a lot of money – and, then there would never be a guarantee that it came from the factory that way. But there is nothing like a lot of experienced collectors looking at a gun and saying ‘this is right".

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March 16, 2014 - 6:58 am
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Bert and Burt,

Thank you so much for your reply’s, very helpful. When I saw this multi set, it got me thinking about how many might have been made, and how one would know for sure if it is a legitimate factory ordered set if it’s outside the verifiable range. The forearm wood on the set I saw is almost identical, and match the stock, but I’m no way an expert or experienced as some of you folks are.

Thanks,

Al

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March 16, 2014 - 8:51 am
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Another check that could be made to help verify if it is correct is to check and see if both barrel dates match, that is if it is a post 1920 gun. Really not a sure way but just another check mark in the verification stage.

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