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That is a good point Brian. As well, if the second barrel was added during an R&R, it is possible it could have new matching assembly markings underneath the barrels / forearms as well. Would (could) there be any matching markings inside the TD flange?
Bert: That must have been a real treat for you to get a close up look at the 5 barrel set. Whenever I win that lottery, I’ll be tracking that gun down. 8)
Matt
Would there be a date, or assembly markings under the forearms even if the gun was manufactured in 1910? How would you know where to look?
tionesta1 said
Would there be a date, or assembly markings under the forearms even if the gun was manufactured in 1910? How would you know where to look?
It is highly unlikely that a date would be marked anywhere on the barrels assemblies, but assembly markings are a possibility, especially if it was originally built as a 2-barrel set. If the second barrel assembly was fitted at a later date, I would expect to find the order number marked on the bottom of the barrel if Winchester did the work.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Sadly, I have new and reliable information on the 5-barreled set pictured and described in my book as being assembled privately and in no way factory original. Much of the story is correct except the part about how the set came to be a set.
Sadly again, my book is now officially "out of stock and printing indefinitely" whatever that means.
Happily, I have been busy gathering as much new and interesting facts as I could and have come up with a CD of 16000 words and well over 100 photos that I will be offering as an addendum to the last edition. It will be a CD in Word /PDF format. A LOT of information and some corrections and formatted to be easily correlated to the respective areas of the book. Details to follow.
BOBR94 said
Sadly, I have new and reliable information on the 5-barreled set pictured and described in my book as being assembled privately and in no way factory original. Much of the story is correct except the part about how the set came to be a set.
Sadly again, my book is now officially "out of stock and printing indefinitely" whatever that means.
Happily, I have been busy gathering as much new and interesting facts as I could and have come up with a CD of 16000 words and well over 100 photos that I will be offering as an addendum to the last edition. It will be a CD in Word /PDF format. A LOT of information and some corrections and formatted to be easily correlated to the respective areas of the book. Details to follow.
Oh man, that is unfortunate about that 5 barrel set. I so enjoyed looking at that photo. Guess I can stop worrying about winning the lottery. Man, feel bad for the fellow who bought it last from Cabelas. Yikes.
What is the highest documented multi barrel set now then? A 3 barrel set? Any 4s documented?
Keep us posted Bob on when your CD is available
Matt
I also have seen this 5 barrel set at the Las Vegas show a number of years ago and always thought it was the one in Bobs book. ❓
That 5 barrel set was too good to be true . Is it OK to admit i would still want it for the right price ? , and then I could shoot it knowing it was not priceless
(not sure how this post wound up here …. I already said this earlier in this thread, so I’m deleting this one as it seems a bit out of place at this point in the thread)
The 5 barrel set I am most familiar with can be found on the WACA calendar in either 2008 or 2009 – the gun was also advertised for sale in the Collector in the 2008 to 2010 period – it was displayed at the WACA show in Cody and as I noted in an earlier post displayed at the winter Vegas show. I am confident it is not the same gun in Mr. Rennenberg’s book although I do not have the book to look at it – even though he now has information proving the gun was not factory, Bert said he had put his hands on the gun in the book and he seemed impressed so it must be nice. I have watched Bert’s posts on this forum for a long time and have also done some personal e-mail exchanges with him – he is one of the most knowledgeable I have ever seen regarding Winchester levers and he has set me straight more than once. Accordingly, the 5 barrel set I know would not have left a favorable impression on Bert, although for many years it fooled a lot of people. The gun I am talking about is a fake and is here in Alaska – if anyone wants to buy it, the gun is for sale and I will give you the name and phone number of the guy that owns it. He had it for sale with Cabelas in Billings for a while until they figured out it was not correct. It would actually make a great novelty if you could get it for the right price. Just so you understand, the gun is not right and I have gone to great lengths for quite a number of years to expose it for the fake it is. Both when it was on the WACA calendar and displayed at the WACA show in Cody, I complained to David Bichrest, then the Executive Secretary of WACA. I have know David for 35 years and we are friends – he has been to my home here in Alaska and fondled my Winchesters – I have also purchased guns from him and in the old days, David handled some of the best Winchesters to have been sold in the last 50 years. David knew the gun was not correct but really had no control because the owner was a WACA member. The gun I know has been refinished – the metal looks great but one with knowledge knows it was redone. The wood is the worst part – it is not a real bad match but even redone as it is, all 6 pieces are just a little different. Think about it, in the first 353,999, there were no 5 barrel sets – I don’t how many they produced, if any after that, but whatever they would have produced would have been special order and a masterpiece – for damn sure the wood would have matched perfectly.
BOBR94.
is the new information obtained something you can discuss ? how did
the new information come to light? this is a perfect example of what I
have known for years and that it is simply in some cases extremely hard
to tell the difference between factory original and a parts gun.
love your book and am waiting for your new cd
Wow, talk about an expensive game of "hot Potato" , the last one holding it really got hosed.
So now that the genie is out of the bottle, what’s the story, inquiring minds and all…
Why would anyone think Winchester made such a thing,didn’t they state in their catalog "25-35 interchanging with the 32-40 and the30WCF interchanging with the 32 Winchester Special and 38-55"
That is a good question but I believe the takedown method patented by Winchester in 1893 would allow all barrels of the model to interchange. Bert will be able to provide information on the technical aspects of this. Without records there is no proof of 94’s with 4 or 5 barrel sets. There were 4 rifles in the records with 2 extra barrels, i.e. 3 barrel sets. #’s 52521 and 52525 were ordered in 38-55 with 2 extra barrels, both in 30 WCF – #297200 was ordered with 3 32-40 barrels and # 300748 was ordered with 3 38-55 barrels. I have always been skeptical of the factory 5 barrel set but they probably did make one and maybe more. If Winchester did produce any 5 barrel set(s) they would have been nice and certainly made with perfectly matching wood. The one I have closely examined is a fake but it sure used to attract attention at gun shows!
Since Winchester made 114 (2 barrel sets) and 4 (3 barrel sets) in the first 353,999 guns made, can’t one assume that there were more sets made after that?
Paul
The cartridge guides are what determined interchange. 25-35 and 32-40 used the same guides and 30WCF 32 Win Spl and 38-55 were the same.That is why whoever made the 5 barrel set used a high enough numbered receiver so that it wouldn’t letter.
The 1979 edition of Madis states the same on page 417. 25-35 interchanges with 32-40 and 30wcf 32spl and 38-55 interchange.
Podufa,
So, how would you explain the fact that Winchester did manufacture a 2-barrel set in 25-35 WCF and 38-55?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
It may not be a fact.
It seems rather simple.
ARMEX #5 page 103 says Guns were surveyed as they left the factory,rather than after return for rework.
ARMEX #5 page 125 *63261 25/35&38/55
ARMEX #5 page 126 *not included in the count
If Winchester was in the habit of mixing calibers doesn’t it seem reasonable to think they would have more than one?
Why wasn’t it in the count? Maybe Winchester didn’t make it.
Maybe it was sent back for a caliber change instead of an extra barrel.
I’m sure you have a good phoney reason for it.
Maybe the person who made the five barrel set made it after all he fooled the most expert of the experts.
January 26, 2011
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podufa said
It may not be a fact.
It seems rather simple.
ARMEX #5 page 103 says Guns were surveyed as they left the factory,rather than after return for rework.
ARMEX #5 page 125 *63261 25/35&38/55
ARMEX #5 page 126 *not included in the count
If Winchester was in the habit of mixing calibers doesn’t it seem reasonable to think they would have more than one?
Why wasn’t it in the count? Maybe Winchester didn’t make it.
Maybe it was sent back for a caliber change instead of an extra barrel.
I’m sure you have a good phoney reason for it.
Maybe the person who made the five barrel set made it after all he fooled the most expert of the experts.
I just looked at this info in my Armax copy and would say that it was shown in the ledgers as a 25/35 & 38/55 set, so it was correctly noted in thier list as such. Gael Oswalt and John Hawk may have questioned the accuracy of the ledger entry so therefore didn’t consider that one in the total. There were 86 other caliber entry mistakes called out in the survey, so maybe this was just another one that was entered wrong……..who knows.
~Gary~
I have requested a copy of the ledger entry for serial number 63261 so that we can all see what it has to say.
I noted that in the ARMAX Vol V, that it states "TOTAL: 118 (4 have 3 sets of barrels)". However, when I counted the serial numbers listed, there are 122, two of which have an * and were not counted… that still leaves 120, four of which have 3-barrel sets.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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