Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Offline
really interesting comments on multi-barrel sets. This is why I find this hobby so fascinating.
Bert – I am really starting to get confused about interchangeable barrels on the 94 – as you know, I just collect and love them – I don’t get into the technical details like you do but this is precisely up your alley and I am confident you will sort it out. As I have noted in previous posts I worked hard to expose the faked 5 barrel set from Alaska. If I would have thought for a minute that the barrels of all five calibers would not interchange and function, I would have had more to talk about than just to explain how the blue should not cover the serial number and proof marks or the wood should match. You cannot imagine how many collectors and dealers I talked to about it – I mean long time knowledgeable people – not one time was this ever brought up – not one time did anyone say you can’t just take off your 32-40 barrel and attach your 38-55 barrel and go shoot something. I just spent a few minutes in the Pirkle book on the 1894 – on page 28 he states there were 4 different types of cartridge guides for the Model 1894 and they were not even the same for the 25-35 and the 32-40 – the specifications for the guides are on page 29. Also, on page 29 he notes " the caliber of a Model 1894 cannot be changed simply by replacing the barrel except for the 32-40 and 32 Special – unless the cartridge guides are also changed, the Model 1894 will not feed correctly. So, it sounds to me like the barrels would interchange just fine – Pirkle states on page 26 of his book that the Model 1894 takedown receiver will accept the takedown barrel of another caliber as the only difference is the bore diameter – but you would not be able to make the cartridges feed correctly and would not have a properly functioning gun. I guess the rebuttal would be that if Winchester made a customer a Model 1894 with different calibers, they would provide the proper cartridge guide to be used with the corresponding barrel – maybe there is something about this in old catalogs. Serial # 64281 was ordered with a 38-55 barrel and a 30 WCF barrel but the cartridge guide specs for these two calibers were different so it seems you would have had to change the guides when you changed the barrels.This is out of my league and I am confused.
Wasn’t there an earlier thread on this forum which discussed the variation of the cartridge guides for the various calibers as it related to just this topic?? Can anyone find it?
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Wasn’t there an earlier thread on this forum which discussed the variation of the cartridge guides for the various calibers as it related to just this topic?? Can anyone find it?Michael
Michael, I believe this is the post you are looking for
http://forum.winchestercollector.org/viewtopic.php?t=6111&highlight=
The front end assemblies (barrels, mag tubes etc) are interchangeable for the most part; with some minor fitting; +/- .002 will have an impact on the TD lugs timing. If you look at the face of a TD lug, you can see where they were hand fitted.
The large caliber 1892 and 1894 TD lugs are the same.
Winchester listed the 25-35 and 32-40 L/R Cartridge guides as interchangeable, and the 38 – 55, 30 WFC, and the 32 WS Cartridge guides as interchangeable. I have worked on enough 94s and have noted the differences.
As an interesting note, Winchester listed different breech bolts and carriers with the 38-55/30 WCF/32 WS interchanging and 25-35/32-40 interchanging. This I have not noted, but will start looking in the future.
Thank you for providing the previous discussion link – it at least confirmed why I was/am confused – I am neither a gunsmith or an engineer and this is pretty technical. It does appear no definitive conclusion has been reached. I have to be a little skeptical of Winchester just using 38 caliber guides on a multi barrel set when it appears clear that even though it might function, it would not be a perfectly functioning gun and at that point in history Winchester was into perfection. I have not seen any comments regarding Winchester providing more than one set of cartridge guides for a multi barrel gun – or, would changing the guides be too difficult for the gun owner to be practical – seems like if they would have provided extra guides, it would be noted in an old catalog and one of you would have seen it. Again, thanks to all for the information.
Very informative, I guess a 32ws, and 32-40 combination is at least a possibility, even though the set I saw most likely did not originally come from the factory as a two barrel set.
Burt,
As with nearly every reference book ever written about the Model 1894, there are obvious errors in them, and Art Pirkle’s book is no exception.
Why anyone would claim that the 30 WCF and 32 WS cartridge guides are not interchangeable baffles the heck out of me. Think about it… the 32 WS is a 30 WCF cartridge with a slightly larger neck diameter (.321 vs. .308). That is the only difference between the two! The cartridge guide dimensions are designed for the body of the case, not its neck diameter. Both the 25-35 and 32-40 have a tapered cartridge, whereas the 30 WCF, 32 WS, and 38-55 have a larger diameter for the case body. Now, with that stated, I can see no mechanical reason why a 25-35 cartridge would not feed through a 30 WCF/32 WS action. It might be a bit loose (sloppy) as it feeds through, but there is no mechanical or dimensional reason for it to not feed and load.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert
It’s not the case width, but the maximum overall length for the cartridge, the 32-40 and 25-35 allows for .09 longer overall length than the 38-55, 30 WCF and 32 WS. The longer length means that the cartridge needs to start tilting up sooner.
The ctg guides are different, but not in thickness, but where the cuts start and the angle of the cuts.
I used to have both a 32WS and 38-55 in takedown – I have not missed them until now as I would be able to go switch barrels, grab some ammo and see if they would feed correctly. It sounds like if everything was mechanically correct with no excessive wear, the barrels would switch just fine. However, it appears there may be a problem with getting the ammo to feed correctly, especially in the 32WS. If that is correct, then why did Winchester produce interchangeable barrels in these calibers and how would they expect them to work properly unless you switched the cartridge guide which I am assuming would not be something a non-gunsmith like me should mess with. Winchester would not have put a gun out their door, including one with an extra barrel, unless it would function properly and based on the ARMAX records, several were produced with 32WS and 38-55 barrels. How did they make it work?
The 38-55 and 32 WS should work with no problem, again, it was the 32-40 and 25-35 ctg guides that were different.
Mike – after reading your last post a little better, I now realize you say the 32WS and 38-55 would feed ok. I think I want to wait and see what Bert finds out about #63264 (has the footnote in the ARMAX)-it was supposedly in 25-35 and 38-55 and would not feed properly. Thanks – I need to read this stuff better but like I said previously I am neither gunsmith or engineer and will leave that to guys like you and Bert
Burt Humphrey said
Thank you for providing the previous discussion link – it at least confirmed why I was/am confused – I am neither a gunsmith or an engineer and this is pretty technical. It does appear no definitive conclusion has been reached. I have to be a little skeptical of Winchester just using 38 caliber guides on a multi barrel set when it appears clear that even though it might function, it would not be a perfectly functioning gun and at that point in history Winchester was into perfection. I have not seen any comments regarding Winchester providing more than one set of cartridge guides for a multi barrel gun – or, would changing the guides be too difficult for the gun owner to be practical – seems like if they would have provided extra guides, it would be noted in an old catalog and one of you would have seen it. Again, thanks to all for the information.
Speaking from experience changing cartridge guides is not something you want to try in the field or hunt camp. 👿 Always wondered what the Winchester design guy was smoking when he decided to fastened these from the inside. 😕
Mike Hunter
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 636
New postPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
——————————————————————————–
Bert
It’s not the case width, but the maximum overall length for the cartridge, the 32-40 and 25-35 allows for .09 longer overall length than the 38-55, 30 WCF and 32 WS. The longer length means that the cartridge needs to start tilting up sooner.
The ctg guides are different, but not in thickness, but where the cuts start and the angle of the cuts.
_________________
Mike Hunter
http://www.mikehunterrestorations.com
Amateurs practice until they get it right; Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong
Back to top View user’s profile Send private message
Mike I am curious as to where you came up with your c.o.l meausurements
without getting out my book I was thinking the 32 ws had the longest c.o.l.
by quite a bit. I an thinking 2.565 ? and the 25-35 and 30-30 were about
the same 2.550
Based on the Lyman #41 and #42 reloading guides the following cartridge dimensions are given:
Caliber………….Case Length………….Cartridge with Bullet
25-35………………. 2.04"……………………..2.53"
30-30………………..2.04"……………………..2.55"
32 WS……………2.04" & 2.06"……………….2.55"
32-40…………….2.12" & 2.13"………………2.59"
38-55………………..2.12"……………………..2.487"
With this much variation between cartridges and the assumed variation between different sets of cartridge guides, and the calibers that are supposed to work together with the same guides it makes me scratch my head over the whole discussion. Call me dense, maybe Im just missing something here????
It may also be beneficial to note that its not that easy to fit one takedown barrel on a frame in which it was not intended. Ive tried it out of curiosity and in most cases it didnt work. I believe they were likely custom fitted–has to do with the indexing of the barrel within the takedown ring and the receiver. Maybe you get lucky on a few, who knows.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
thanks 1892 for posting your info out of the lyman 41 and 42
I am new to this site and fairly new to Winchesters. I would just like to
point out that information dealing with c.o.l. is coming from books on
reloading if I am correct? in a lot of instances the books or information
simply do not agree .
your post shows the 32ws in the 41 and 42 edition of a c.o.l. of 2.55
my lyman 45 and 49 edition both give 2.565 as a c.o.l.
It seems to me that we are all giving information on overall cartridge length
which is coming from reloading books or sites.
I would think we need information about Winchester factory loaded ammo
of that time period
maybe Mike has info on the original Winchester factory loaded cartridge
of the time period in question?
even the bullet wt. and design affect the c.o.l. just some thoughts
Your right, its reloading data, fairly standardized. Ive got multiple boxes of early ammo for each of these calibers. I will measure them tonight and post the results and see where we come out.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Designed cartridge length always falls within a range of values. For example, looking at a drawing of chamber and cartridge dimensions for the 32 Special (Omark Industries)a it specifies a C.O.L. of 2.480" to 2.565".
The 30 W.C.F. is 2.450 to 2.550".
The 25-35 is 2.515 to 2.550"
The 32-40 is 2.460 to 2.500" and
the 38-55 is 2.510" MAX.
Burt Humphrey said
Thank you for providing the previous discussion link – it at least confirmed why I was/am confused – I am neither a gunsmith or an engineer and this is pretty technical. It does appear no definitive conclusion has been reached. I have to be a little skeptical of Winchester just using 38 caliber guides on a multi barrel set when it appears clear that even though it might function, it would not be a perfectly functioning gun and at that point in history Winchester was into perfection. I have not seen any comments regarding Winchester providing more than one set of cartridge guides for a multi barrel gun – or, would changing the guides be too difficult for the gun owner to be practical – seems like if they would have provided extra guides, it would be noted in an old catalog and one of you would have seen it. Again, thanks to all for the information.
Speaking from experience changing cartridge guides is not something you want to try in the field or hunt camp. 👿 Always wondered what the Winchester design guy was smoking when he decided to fastened these from the inside. 😕
The first 1894 rifles had the cartridge guide screws coming in from the outside of the action as you are well aware, no doubt but apparently idiots with flat screwdrivers were common before the turn of the century and Winchester changed the design to inside mounted cartridge guides.
As promised, I pulled out all my 1906 series Winchester factory original ammo. This is how they measured out—a minimum of 7 original cartridges were measured. There were some outliers from the standard cartridge lengths on select cartridges (a few thousandths of an inch)–but we also see this in modern cartridges from the same box as well. The dimensions shown below were the most consistent:
1906 Winchester Factory Ammo
Caliber……………Case Length……………Cartridge w/ Bullet
25-35………………..2.035”……………………….2.547”
30-30………………..2.037”……………………….2.541”
32WS………………..2.035”……………………….2.562”
32-40…………………2.112”………………………2.493”
38-55…………………2.125”………………………2.545”
Modern Winchester Ammo
Caliber……………..Case Length…………..Cartridge w/ Bullet
25-35…………………..2.025”…………………….2.527”
30-30..…………….…..2.030”…………………….2.541”
32WS…………………..2.027”…………………….2.557”
32-40…………………..2.120”……………………..2.497”
38-55..…………………2.080”……………………..2.495”
Lyman 41 & 42 Reloading Manual Data
Caliber………….Case Length………….Cartridge with Bullet
25-35………………. 2.04"……………………..2.53"
30-30………………..2.03"……………………..2.53"
32 WS……………2.04" & 2.06"……………….2.55"
32-40…………….2.12" & 2.13"………………2.59"
38-55………………..2.12"……………………..2.487"
(Note: I made a mistake in the previous post regarding the 30-30 lengths in the Lyman Manual–corrected above–apologies)
Based on the 1906 Winchester ammo the overall cartridge length for the 25-35, 30-30, and 38-55 are virtually the same. The 32-40 has the shortest cartridge length and the 32WS has the longest. If the cartridge guides for 25-35 and 32-40 are indeed different from the others, it would seem that it has more to do with shape of the cartridge and not the overall cartridge length, cartridge heads or rims being a non-factor as they are the same for all the calibers above.
If those little cartridge guide screws werent such a pain in the rump to get out 😡
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1 Guest(s)
