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Mod. 64 carbine 25-35 FAKE gun
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September 8, 2022 - 12:56 pm
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If you google “Winchester 64 25-35 for sale”  the ad with serial number will come up on the first page. 

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September 8, 2022 - 1:24 pm
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Just a receipt.IMG_20220908_080711.jpgImage Enlarger The current manager may not have known.

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September 8, 2022 - 2:23 pm
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  I used to think I was a graduate of the “School of Hard-knocks”, but now I know I’m still in school. I have been  taken more times than I care to admit.

 When I buy a gun I ask the owner direct questions to get yes or no answers, followed by a terms of sale agreement. This method is only as good as the man’s honesty so references are required. T/R

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September 8, 2022 - 3:03 pm
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Hardhat DV2 said
Just a receipt.IMG_20220908_080711.jpgImage Enlarger The current manager may not have known.

  

I’ve heard about shady dealings with this dealer in the past.  One on my list to never do business with.

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September 8, 2022 - 5:29 pm
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I do not want to “pile on” any particular dealer, as this sort of thing is rampant and when done using period correct original factory parts can be somewhere between difficult and impossible to detect without a prior record of the gun as something else, as in this case.

Related example… 

Pre-war M70 S/N 4045 (1937) when it sold on GI as a 30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifle (most common chambering):

First-Sale-SN-4045-.pngImage EnlargerPickard-SN-4045.jpegImage Enlarger

Pre-war M70 S/N 4045 when relisted on GI a few months later as a 7 M/M Standard rifle (third rarest of the original cataloged M70 chamberings):

Second-Sale-SN-4045.pngImage EnlargerBarnett-SN-4045.jpgImage Enlarger

Other than barrel, the only difference between a M70 in 30-06 and one in 7×57 Mauser is a #3 stamped on the magazine spring instead of #1.  There was no close-up photo of the barrel markings in the second listing that might help to discern whether the 7 M/M barrel was factory… 

Dirty business…

Lou

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September 8, 2022 - 5:42 pm
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Don’t feel too bad about getting fooled by a professional counterfeiter.  More times than I wish to remember I have purchased guns that turned out to be “incorrect”.  The positive to that is, I buy what I like and I liked the gun I bought.  This attitude has kept me from being overly distraught at my mistake.  Yes, I have purchased a few that I knew were not right, but I just liked them enough to be pleased just to have them.  I know that I’m like a burr under the saddle to some of the purest, but we must all seek our own pleasure.  RDB

P.S. I had a “friend” convince me that a post war Model 70  “Super Grade” carbine in 270 Win. that has “special fancy” wood was worth $10,000.00.  That still hurts!  Embarassed

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September 8, 2022 - 5:57 pm
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Louis Luttrell said
Pre-war M70 S/N 4045 when relisted on GI a few months later as a 7 M/M Standard rifle (third rarest of the original cataloged M70 chamberings):

Other than barrel, the only difference between a M70 in 30-06 and one in 7×57 Mauser is a #3 stamped on the magazine spring instead of #1.  There was no close-up photo of the barrel markings in the second listing that might help to discern whether the 7 M/M barrel was factory… 

Dirty business…

Lou

  

A second & very similar fake being sold by the same dealer is too much of a coincidence; I retract what I previously said about him probably being an unwitting participant in the fraud.  Dirty but no doubt highly profitable.

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September 8, 2022 - 6:13 pm
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rogertherelic said   Yes, I have purchased a few that I knew were not right, but I just liked them enough to be pleased just to have them. RDB
  

That’s well & good, Roger, if you know what you’re doing, & if the price reflects the “problem,” whatever it is.  I see slightly “not right” items such as sights & scopes on ebay all the time, that I could use at a price reflecting their flawed condition.  Big problem, however, is that on any auction site you’re bidding against know-nothings who’ve never bothered to educate themselves about their own interests, despite the wealth of info now available of the internet.

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September 9, 2022 - 1:03 am
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As a novice collector, I find this site and these posts very informative.  Thanks for everyone’s input at surfacing these types of issues…..

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September 9, 2022 - 4:20 pm
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clarence said

rogertherelic said   Yes, I have purchased a few that I knew were not right, but I just liked them enough to be pleased just to have them. RDB

  

That’s well & good, Roger, if you know what you’re doing, & if the price reflects the “problem,” whatever it is.  I see slightly “not right” items such as sights & scopes on ebay all the time, that I could use at a price reflecting their flawed condition.  Big problem, however, is that on any auction site you’re bidding against know-nothings who’ve never bothered to educate themselves about their own interests, despite the wealth of info now available of the internet.

  

My favorite high wall has had a barrel/caliber change.  All period correct Winchester parts.  I knew it when I bought it.  I paid less than a Modern reproduction.  I shoot the heck out of it.

Bidding on any auction site is a real risk in more ways than one.

I got ripped off by a friend once when I ventured into another field.  Eventually I got my money back on a trade.  I did tell him not to do this to me again. But buying from him again may never happen.

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September 9, 2022 - 5:41 pm
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CJS57 said
If you google “Winchester 64 25-35 for sale”  the ad with serial number will come up on the first page. 

  

$5950!!!!  Wow, I could not handle this.  I realize the buyer may have paid a somewhat lesser price, but still, that is a whole lot of dough to have into a piece that has been faked.  So, the dealer was just passing a gun along that he got ripped off on, or?

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September 9, 2022 - 5:59 pm
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steve004 said   So, the dealer was just passing a gun along that he got ripped off on, or?
  

I was willing originally to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, but if you read Lou’s post about the same seller, the odds that this sale was an honest “mistake” are highly unlikely.

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September 9, 2022 - 9:19 pm
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I just read Steve Barnett passed away in November 2020.  The gun shop is now being ran by his son August.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/dailytimesleader/name/steven-barnett-obituary?id=9515780

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September 10, 2022 - 3:18 pm
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This is response to Louis Luttrell and his Mod. 70  in 7 Mauser story.  Mine is S/N: 7491. No internet on this one. Met the man at a gun show. I had a Savage 99 he wanted and Mod. 97 riot gun at his home. He invited me up the but it took a year with this covid stuff. We did our deal and he showed me a couple Mod. 70 s. Maybe 6 months later those came home with me.

I haven’t looked in to these yet. I guess I will find out more when I post.

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September 10, 2022 - 5:09 pm
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It’s one thing to post photos and details of a rifle you are considering purchasing, on this site.  The feedback is routinely very helpful.  It can result in a different experience to post the same details of a rifle from your collection.  There are very sharp and experienced eyes here.  A person might own a rifle for decades and had no reason to not believe it was right as rain.  But, none of us know everything.  Collectively, the knowledge here is about as substantial and comprehensive as can be found anywhere.  When you post something here, there is the risk of news that you might find highly unpleasant.  Bad news can have various implications.  For example, a person might own a rifle that they have had every reason to believe is correct – and can sell it as such with a clear conscience.  If you find out it isn’t correct, you might feel the tug of an ethical bind.  Not pleasant.  This reminds me of the adage, “once you own a gun, you will never see it with fresh eyes again.”  All the eyes here are fresh Smile

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September 10, 2022 - 5:46 pm
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steve004 said
It’s one thing to post photos and details of a rifle you are considering purchasing, on this site.  The feedback is routinely very helpful.  It can result in a different experience to post the same details of a rifle from your collection.  There are very sharp and experienced eyes here.  A person might own a rifle for decades and had no reason to not believe it was right as rain.  But, none of us know everything.  Collectively, the knowledge here is about as substantial and comprehensive as can be found anywhere.  When you post something here, there is the risk of news that you might find highly unpleasant.  Bad news can have various implications.  For example, a person might own a rifle that they have had every reason to believe is correct – and can sell it as such with a clear conscience.  If you find out it isn’t correct, you might feel the tug of an ethical bind.  Not pleasant.  This reminds me of the adage, “once you own a gun, you will never see it with fresh eyes again.”  All the eyes here are fresh Smile

  

 So true and great advice!

  With regard to guns you own the statement, “When you post something here, there is the risk of news that you might find highly unpleasant.”,is the brutal truth. Thanks Steve for pointing that out. T/R

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September 10, 2022 - 7:02 pm
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Hi Hardhat-

I have no record of S/N 7491, but S/N 7482 was a 7 M/M, as was 7009 and 7977.  Yours was probably made as part of the same production order as S/N 7482.  Smile

Is yours a standard rifle or some other configuration?  I’d like to add the record to my ongoing M70 survey.

Regarding Steve’s insightful comments, I agree… I am happy to provide an opinion on a gun prior to its purchase, but I shy away from making gratuitous comments about something someone already owns, unless asked directly and off-line, e.g. by PM.  I never know how somebody will take the news if my opinion happens to differ from their own…  Of course, pre-64 M70s are the only Winchester firearms I consider myself qualified to even have an opinion about, let alone dump it on someone else… Smile

Best,

Lou

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September 10, 2022 - 7:59 pm
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This thread has prompted me to reflect back on some of the, “hard knock lessons” I’ve been, “privileged” to learn over the years.  I’ve collected for a lot of years and overall, it has been fun.  BUT, I’ve had my painful moments.  Presently, I consider myself very adept at detecting hidden tap holes – in both wood and metal.  Earlier in my collecting career, I wasn’t highly adept at it.  Unfortunately, I didn’t know that Embarassed.  I learned some very painful lessons on a few pieces.  It goes without saying that, “painful lessons” are a post-purchase experience.  I will also comment that the delivery of unpleasant news is usually not fun for the, “messenger” either.  Understandably, many will say silent – particularly when not directed asked for an opinion.  I recall proudly showing a vintage special order Winchester to a fellow collector.  As he looked at it, I could tell something was amiss.  He looked nervous and I could sense there was something he didn’t want to say.  I finally said, “out with it!” and he reluctantly showed me two tap holes in the metal I had missed.  And the very embarrassing part was how obvious they were once he showed them to me! 

I continue to learn from this site and consider it a privilege to be a member.  Most of the time, learning is a very pleasant experience.  But there are those times when it is not.  As I see it, the straight talk we have on this site gives all us an edge on side-stepping that next painful lesson that has its sights set on us.  I sure wish I had access to a place like this when I was early in my collecting career. I am constantly impressed with the time that very knowledgeable experts spend in answering most any question posed. This place is literally like gold compared to what I had when I started.  And with the escalating fakery out there, it is very much needed.

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September 10, 2022 - 11:52 pm
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On the topic of Winchester 64’s in 25-35, any insights into whether this one is original? 

https://www.gunsamerica.com/913100944/Winchester-Model-64-Standard-Rifle-in-25-35.htm

The seller is reputable as far as I know, but after reading this thread, would like to make sure if possible, as we have done a good volume of business with them. 

Thank you. 

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September 11, 2022 - 12:17 am
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Ron P said
On the topic of Winchester 64’s in 25-35, any insights into whether this one is original? 

https://www.gunsamerica.com/913100944/Winchester-Model-64-Standard-Rifle-in-25-35.htm

The seller is reputable as far as I know, but after reading this thread, would like to make sure if possible, as we have done a good volume of business with them. 

Thank you. 

  

I have seen this rifle before, and recorded it as being factory original at the time i viewed it.  Based on the pictures in the listing, I stand by that assessment.

Bert

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