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Maverick said
Here is a study of the auction rifle #14103, #14105, & Bill’s Rifle.
Looks like the first two are identical, and Bill’s Rifle is different. I would conclude that Bill’s Rifle was cut using a different stamp than the earlier two.
But I do find the first rifle’s markings a little odd. Almost as if the stamp bounced and left the shadow mark. But who really knows?
I don’t know if the factory used individual stamps for the marking of the calibers early on, as I doubt they were individually engraved. The last caliber marking looks a like a more uniform stamping.
My humble opinion, take it or leave it.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Maverick –
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I am leaning toward the rifle in the question (the first elevator in the three you so), concluding that the elevator stamping came that way from the factory. Some sort of bounce-back stamp situation or as you say, “who really knows?” I am sure the workmen at the Winchester factory never dreamed that obsessive collectors would pour over these minute details with such concern – and how ambiguity over small details like this might determine whether one chose to spend thousands of dollars on a rifle – or walk away.
A real forensics guy/gal could probably detail out those tiny little hash marks inside the five and see if both strikes were done with the same tool. Likewise with a comparison to the middle picture. Those 5s also have the hash marks. The five on the left on the middle photo even seems to show those hashes extending beyond the inside edge of the 5.
The 73’s had 2 stamp process for each elevator the number 44, 38, and 32 were one stamp and the “Cal” was a seperate stamp. The 22’s had another stamp for long or short. The 50-95 from what I can tell is a 3 stamp process, the 50, 95 and the dash were separate stamps.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
The 73’s had 2 stamp process for each elevator the number 44, 38, and 32 were one stamp and the “Cal” was a seperate stamp. The 22’s had another stamp for long or short. The 50-95 from what I can tell is a 3 stamp process, the 50, 95 and the dash were separate stamps.Bob
Bob – that is helpful. Thanks!
1873man said
The 50-95 from what I can tell is a 3 stamp process, the 50, 95 and the dash were separate stamps.Bob
I don’t doubt that you are correct. I took the stampings of the first two rifles and tried overlaying them using a transparency and the spacing doesn’t match up between the two stamping overall left to right. Each individual number / mark matches up nicely with the corresponding number of the other rifle. Even each number has a very slight variance between them, but I would imagine that is merely how they were being held and by whom and also how hard they were stamped by the person(s) doing the stamping. Also don’t forget the bottom of an elevator is a slightly curved surface.
But I do wonder if later in production, if the factory used a single line item stamp “50 – 95”. As that seems to be what is going on with the rifle in the 27,000s.
It would be an interesting study to look at variations and compare the markings of all the 50-95 elevators that you could find. But who has time for that? And to what end?
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
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1873man said
The 73’s had 2 stamp process for each elevator the number 44, 38, and 32 were one stamp and the “Cal” was a seperate stamp. The 22’s had another stamp for long or short. The 50-95 from what I can tell is a 3 stamp process, the 50, 95 and the dash were separate stamps.Bob
Bob, I think that it is true for the dust cover too. It certainly isn’t roll died.
Some of you have seen these before but here are the actual elevator stamps for the 73. These were made J Ulrich and are marked . They put their names on them so they could be returned to the engraver to get repaired. There would of been several copies of each one depending on how many workstations were stamping them and you need extras to replace ones that get damaged or worn and have to be repaired. With each one a hand made stamp their would be difference in the shape of a letter or number from one gun to the next.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Some of you have seen these before but here are the actual elevator stamps for the 73. These were made J Ulrich and are marked . They put their names on them so they could be returned to the engraver to get repaired. There would of been several copies of each one depending on how many workstations were stamping them and you need extras to replace ones that get damaged or worn and have to be repaired. With each one a hand made stamp their would be difference in the shape of a letter or number from one gun to the next.Bob
Bob – I had not seen those before. I’m glad I have. Very cool.
This is a top notch learning discussion. Here’s my take:
The scrawling detracts from the value of this rifle.
The elevator stampings were probably factory work.
Overall condition of gun groups are a good match considering that the case colors have been touched up, perhaps, with a clear coat. Much better job done on the receiver than the forend cap.
Graded condition of excellent is a huge stretch…more like the low end of VG.
The muzzle damage on one flat has obviously been repaired.
The elevator is an ill fit to the receiver as pointed out.
My first take on the number 5’s on the dust cover was that they were original as mentioned by TR as well.
Gun has been taken apart and reassembled.
I also agree that the caliber markings on the elevator was a three stamp process.
I also agree with Henry that this would be a tough sell, especially to a hard ass Winchester collector…and this forum is what builds this attitude.
Thanks to everyone for making this thread so interesting.
James
Maverick said
I don’t doubt that you are correct. I took the stampings of the first two rifles and tried overlaying them using a transparency and the spacing doesn’t match up between the two stamping overall left to right. Each individual number / mark matches up nicely with the corresponding number of the other rifle. Even each number has a very slight variance between them, but I would imagine that is merely how they were being held and by whom and also how hard they were stamped by the person(s) doing the stamping. Also don’t forget the bottom of an elevator is a slightly curved surface.
But I do wonder if later in production, if the factory used a single line item stamp “50 – 95”. As that seems to be what is going on with the rifle in the 27,000s.
It would be an interesting study to look at variations and compare the markings of all the 50-95 elevators that you could find. But who has time for that? And to what end?
Sincerely,
Maverick
Here are some photos of markings on a later gun of mine to compare- serial # is 50062.
I been holding back some information about this gun and wanted to verify it before saying anything. This gun showed up in a old survey I got from another collector and described the gun except it said it had a Shotgun Butt. I just got the Cody email and it letters Shotgun Butt. That is why there is no letter with the gun.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I been holding back some information about this gun and wanted to verify it before saying anything. This gun showed up in a old survey I got from another collector and described the gun except it said it had a Shotgun Butt. I just got the Cody email and it letters Shotgun Butt. That is why there is no letter with the gun.Bob
It is indeed a small world. So, when a previous collector had it, it had a shotgun butt (presumably the buttstock it was originally shipped with). That means that the current stock was added far after the inscription dated 1884?
steve004 said
It is indeed a small world. So, when a previous collector had it, it had a shotgun butt (presumably the buttstock it was originally shipped with). That means that the current stock was added far after the inscription dated 1884?
I would say the bear story is just that or was from another gun.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Stories, stories, stories you’ll love to hate them. Maybe learn to hate them.
Good example of what a letter or phone search is worth. If it didn’t show up in an old search the owner would say it was a “ledger error”. Now if this gun was not in a letter-able serial number range you would think it’s original. Winchester made all the parts, but they didn’t put them all on the same gun. T/R
1873man said
I just got the Cody email and it letters Shotgun Butt. That is why there is no letter with the gun.Bob
What could possibly posses someone to switch the buttstocks? Was the original somehow destroyed? If that happened, it would be much easier to find a replacement with a crescent plate. But then why draw attention to it with that ridiculous scrawl?
This fraud ought to be brought to the attention of Morphy’s. Doing so will reveal the extent of their complicity.
Well I’d say swapped stocks drops the price down a bit, at least for me it does. That is why you always want to hold it in your hands.
Not the first and won’t be the last Winchester to have swapped stocks.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
November 7, 2015
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1873man said
I been holding back some information about this gun and wanted to verify it before saying anything. This gun showed up in a old survey I got from another collector and described the gun except it said it had a Shotgun Butt. I just got the Cody email and it letters Shotgun Butt. That is why there is no letter with the gun.Bob
Bob-
Listing now includes a search result with the same date as yours.
Mike
Very interesting. I wonder what brought this about? Too bad it was just 2 days before the end of the auction. It does say something for Morphy’s though.
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