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Highwall in 45 EX
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Chuck
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September 10, 2025 - 6:38 pm
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I plan to use more powder, eventually.  But I doubt I will ever get over what Frank Barnes suggests.  Unless, someone can come up with the published chamber pressure created using more powder.   The erratic speeds will go away once I get my filler issue and the neck tension worked out. 

Look at any loading manual.  You see that with different powders you use different amounts to create the same speed.  That’s because some powders create more pressure at a given speed.  

I would be interested in reading about what Dupont wrote.   

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Chuck
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September 10, 2025 - 8:10 pm
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I took a look at the loads I use for my 45-90’s.  The 40% formula would state to use 36 grains. Barnes states that 1,530 fps was the factory black powder load using a 300 grain bullet.

I use 31 grains of IMR 4198 for 1,540 mean fps. 43 grains of IMR 3031 for 1,548 mean fps.  24 grains of IMR 4759 for 1,508 mean fps.  Each of these loads were shot at least 60 times to get the average speed.  My old chrono had a printer.  I did not keep the tapes but I did put all of this data on Excel spread sheets for my files.  Including the amount of TP I used. 

Today I keep a log book, an Excel spread sheet and the targets. 

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Chuck
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September 16, 2025 - 9:26 pm
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I fire formed 5 more cases today.  I used full loads of black powder.  Messed up on one shot.  With all the smoke I can’t see where the bullet is hitting so I looked up just as I shot.  Butt hit my collar bone.  That felt good.Embarassed

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Bert H.
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September 16, 2025 - 11:15 pm
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Chuck,

I will assume the cases are now perfectly fitted to the chamber on your rifle? What type bullet are you using?

Bert

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Chuck
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September 17, 2025 - 5:53 pm
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Bert H. said
Chuck,
I will assume the cases are now perfectly fitted to the chamber on your rifle? What type bullet are you using?
Bert
  

I have 20 cases and only 5 are completely formed after 3 firings.  Probably were done after the second firing. The ones I shot yesterday hadn’t been shot before.  After the first firing the cases are almost completely formed. The body is is done but the neck area isn’t.  The ones I just shot the case mouth is still so small I’ll have to use my .457″ expander to get them started.  I can tell when they are done when the bullets will go easily into the mouth.  But this is the problem I’m having.  I don’t have a way to size the necks.  So shooting them with loose necks causes the erratic pressures.

When the powder ignites the case expands in all directions and seals against the chamber walls for a very small fraction of a second before there is enough pressure to push the bullet out.  So with no neck tension it disturbs this process.  It also allows powder to not be burned completely and some of it blows back into the chamber.  After ignition the case will reduce in size and let go of the chamber.  After you fire a case it comes out easily and will go back in the same.  But when formed it won’t hold a bullet. 

All I know about these bullets is that they came from C&C Bullet Casting and I have had these for at least 20 years.  They are 300 grain flat nose .459″ diameter.  Nothing special.

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Bert H.
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September 17, 2025 - 6:46 pm
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Hmmm… it looks like you need to have a custom made sizing die made.

Bert

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Chuck
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September 17, 2025 - 10:37 pm
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Bert H. said
Hmmm… it looks like you need to have a custom made sizing die made.
Bert
  

I agree.  That is why I have been fire forming the brass.  The cheapest dies are from Lee, if they can.  The 2 places that I have contacted all want fire formed brass.  Lee Precision wants the most, 5 cases and 2 bullets to look at before they will decide.

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September 19, 2025 - 10:37 pm
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I have spent quite a bit of the last few days cleaning 3 rifles.  I hate to clean rifles.  The black powder is the worst. I mixed up a concoction of windex, CLR and water.  I could use some ideas from the guys that clean this junk up on a regular basis. I will shoot this second batch again on Tuesday and the last 5 twice after that. 

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TXGunNut
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September 19, 2025 - 10:52 pm
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Windex with vinegar. I generally cut it 50% with water. Quicker cleanup than smokeless with solvents, especially 5744! I also keep some Moose Milk (Ballistol & water mix) on the shelf for some jobs.

 

Mike

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Chuck
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September 20, 2025 - 10:49 pm
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Thanks Mike.  I have all the ingredients.  Except not much 5744. 

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September 21, 2025 - 1:59 am
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Chuck said
Thanks Mike.  I have all the ingredients.  Except not much 5744. 
  

I gather there’s not much 5744 to be had. I wouldn’t put a lot of time into developing a load for it unless/until we start seeing it on the shelf again. In the cartridges I’ve tried 4198 seems to be a good substitute, in some cases somewhat easier to clean up after. I like cleaning BP fired cases after decapping with a little brush after they soak awhile in water with dish soap. After a good rinse I sometimes let my sonic cleaner work on them awhile. Cleans them inside and out. After they dry I like to toss them in the tumbler and they come out shiny inside and out. Not really much work, machines do most of it. Only BP gun that takes me awhile to clean is a cap & ball revolver, partly because I enjoy cleaning them. Since I don’t know when I’ll shoot them again I take the nipples out, scrub everything good and lube well. For them I use the Moose Milk and a few of Midway’s Classy Rags. I have an 1858 replica that needs a range trip, may as well bring along the 1860 Colt replica if I’m going to make a mess.

 

Mike

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Chuck
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September 21, 2025 - 5:03 pm
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TXGunNut said

Chuck said
Thanks Mike.  I have all the ingredients.  Except not much 5744. 
  

I gather there’s not much 5744 to be had. I wouldn’t put a lot of time into developing a load for it unless/until we start seeing it on the shelf again. In the cartridges I’ve tried 4198 seems to be a good substitute, in some cases somewhat easier to clean up after. I like cleaning BP fired cases after decapping with a little brush after they soak awhile in water with dish soap. After a good rinse I sometimes let my sonic cleaner work on them awhile. Cleans them inside and out. After they dry I like to toss them in the tumbler and they come out shiny inside and out. Not really much work, machines do most of it. Only BP gun that takes me awhile to clean is a cap & ball revolver, partly because I enjoy cleaning them. Since I don’t know when I’ll shoot them again I take the nipples out, scrub everything good and lube well. For them I use the Moose Milk and a few of Midway’s Classy Rags. I have an 1858 replica that needs a range trip, may as well bring along the 1860 Colt replica if I’m going to make a mess.
 
Mike
  

I have a few percussion pistols and a cane rifle that I have never shot just because I don’t want to clean them. 

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Chuck
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September 23, 2025 - 10:14 pm
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I fire formed my last cases.  I won’t be shooting these until I have dies.  Got another lead today for someone that may be able to make the dies.  I’ll update the Forum if I have some news.

I have plenty of projects. I do have 2 other calibers that require dies or parts of a die.  One is a Sharps 45-70 that shoots .451″ 550 gr. bullets unlike the Winchester’s .458″ or .459″.  I am also building a new rifle in a Wildcat 284 Win caliber as well as trying to keep my 2 target rifles shooting well. 

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Chuck
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September 25, 2025 - 6:29 pm
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I received an Email today from Pacific Tool and Gauge.  They have the Chamber reamer prints.  This should make things easier to make a reamer to size the die.  

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Chuck
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October 1, 2025 - 4:39 pm
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I knew Bert was on to something when he mentioned his rule of thumb when using 4198 in place of black powder. It took me this long to find the actual data.  I have too many old loading books and manuals.

On page 69 of The Handloader’s Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John Donnelly he explains what Bert had mentioned.  Donnelly references information from Frank Barnes, Cartridges of the World.  So if you buy Barnes book there will be at least 1 smokeless load using IMR 4198 for all of the Winchester cartridges.  To my surprise in this example he uses the 45 EX.   Barnes book says to use 34 grains. 

Please read the part about the reduced loads and the hazards.

Black-Powder-Substitute.jpgImage Enlarger

  

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Bert H.
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October 1, 2025 - 4:59 pm
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Chuck said
I knew Bert was on to something when he mentioned his rule of thumb when using 4198 in place of black powder. It took me this long to find the actual data.  I have too many old loading books and manuals.
On page 69 of The Handloader’s Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John Donnelly he explains what Bert had mentioned.  Donnelly references information from Frank Barnes, Cartridges of the World.  So if you buy Barnes book there will be at least 1 smokeless load using IMR 4198 for all of the Winchester cartridges.  To my surprise in this example he uses the 45 EX.   Barnes book says to use 34 grains. 
Please read the part about the reduced loads and the hazards.

  
  

Interesting, but that is not what Dupont published. I am more inclined to go with the Dupont formula.  34.3 grains of IMR 4198 in a 45 EX case appears to be on the bottom end of the scale.  A friend of mine loads his 45-70 high-wall with 34.0 grains under a 405-grain hard cast bullet and it shoots perfectly.  All that said, 34.3 grains would be a good starting point, and I am curious what velocity it produces.

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Chuck
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October 1, 2025 - 7:07 pm
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I’d like to see a copy of what Dupont published for my records.

I started with 31 grains because the published data by Barnes that I have said to use 34 grains.  I will let the chronograph dictate how far I will go.  I really don’t like pushing my antiques past factory speeds.  I don’t have the capability of figuring out the actual chamber pressure that is being created.  It is absolutely not true that low speed guarantees low chamber pressure.  Different powders will produce more pressure at the same feet per second.  The old books show examples of this.  Many modern manuals don’t show chamber pressure. 

Regardless 34 or 34.3 can be safe loads.  Not 50 grains.  (40% of 125)  The 2 good loads that I shot with 31 grains produced 1,115 fps and 1,136 fps and that was with no neck tension and loose bullets.

I use 31 grains of 4198 in my 45-90 loads.  With the 300 grain bullet I get 1,550 fps.  I can’t find anything that Dupont posted for using 4198 instead of BP.  But I did find this.  Do not use this, it is unsafe. 

“Common formula for IMR 4198 in black powder cartridges 
A widely cited formula for using IMR 4198 to replicate black powder ballistics with cast bullets is attributed to shooting writer Ross Seyfried:
wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==
(Nominal black powder weight)×0.40=(IMR 4198 charge weight)open paren cap N o m i n a l space b l a c k space p o w d e r space w e i g h t close paren cross 0.40 equals open paren cap I cap M cap R space 4198 space c h a r g e space w e i g h t close paren

(𝑁𝑜𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑙 𝑏𝑙𝑎𝑐𝑘 𝑝𝑜𝑤𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑤𝑒𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡)×0.40=(𝐼𝑀𝑅 4198 𝑐ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑔𝑒 𝑤𝑒𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡)

For example, in a .45-70 cartridge, which traditionally used 70 grains of black powder, this formula would suggest a starting load of:

wAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==
70 grains×0.40=28 grains IMR 419870 space g r a i n s cross 0.40 equals 28 space g r a i n s space cap I cap M cap R space 4198

70 𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑠×0.40=28 𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑠 𝐼𝑀𝑅 4198

This method is intended to achieve similar velocities to the original black powder load”

EDIT:  I don’t know why these 2 sentences got over written?  But it is the 40% rule of thumb.

Edit again:  When I looked back at the website it was using AI.  So I guess it is programmed to not give out load data?  The first one crossed out says (Nominal black powder weight) X 0.40=(IMR 4198 charge weight)   The next one said 70 grains X 0.40=28 grains of IMR 4198.

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October 1, 2025 - 7:47 pm
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Chuck,

I am trying to locate the old reference material I have (somewhere) that Dupont published citing the 40% rule of thumb… it is buried somewhere deep in my older files in printed form.  When I eventually find it, I will scan it and make it digital.

I first learned of the 40% formula more than 35-years ago.

While I agree that velocity is not the true test of pressure, Dupont did the pressure testing with the 4198 powder and discovered that the peak pressures were nearly identical to the FFg black powder with the appropriate loads, but that it was slightly slower to create the pressure.  If you are shooting cast bullets (especially hard cast), IMR 4198 may not bump the bullet into the lands as efficiently as BP does.

As far as your “antique” rifle goes, you are not going to stress a high-wall action (or barrel) that is in good condition.  Keep in mind that the action is perfectly safe with significantly stouter (higher pressure) factory loads (e.g. 30-40, 35 WCF, 405 WCF, and 30-06).  I am not trying to convince you to hot-rod your old high-wall, but not to fear hurting it with reasonable loads.  I agree with your approach to work up the powder charge in slow methodical increments.  Again, it will be interesting to find out what your final load ends up at when you reach the factory velocity with a 300-grain bullet.

Bert

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