Highwall in 45 EX|Page 4|Winchester Hunting, Shooting & Reloading|Forum|Winchester Collector

Loaded the 5 rounds for the 3rd firing with 31 grains of 4198.  This was the most miserable day of this entire process.  Mid 90’s in the garage.  The cases have formed well but this caused me problems. I don’t really have anything to squeeze the necks to get any amount of neck tension.  I tried at least 4 other 45 cal dies but the EX is just too fat near the neck to go into the dies.  I should have stopped and gone into the house to cool off.  One mistake after another.  The worst was I knocked a die set off the shelf.  It hit my scale and the container of powder.   What a mess.  No harm to the scale but after I cleaned up the mess a whole lot of powder got thrown out in the grass.  No way to clean out all the dirt and junk from the powder. 

I’m done.  Going to read more of Jeff’s book.  No bourbon for me, too early.  I’d just fall asleep in my recliner.  You know me, I chronograph everything.  I put a small wad of toilet paper over the charge to keep it all near the primer.  Nothing like flaming toilet paper in the morning.  I hate cleaning guns, especially when fired with black powder. 

I shot the 5 rounds again.  BUT, my chronograph’s rechargeable battery pack died.  I did get data for 2 of the 5 cartridges.  1,136 fps and 1,115 fps.  According to Barnes, Cartridges of the World, 35 grains of 4198 should produce 1,475 fps.  So the 31 grains I used came in under that.  I ordered a new battery pack and should be back in business for next week.  Since I have some brass that has not been fire formed I may use these instead.  This way I know the bullets are real tight in the neck. 

I need to inventory my powder.  After the incident last week I may need to buy some 4198 and probably some others too.  Powder is so expensive.  4198 is around $50.  

Bert H. said
Chuck,
The factory original Winchester 45 Express cartridge was loaded to 1,633 fps (at 50′ from the muzzle) with a 300-grain bullet.  If you are trying to recreate the factory load specs, you should shoot for (pun intended) 1,650 at the muzzle.
Bert
  

I’m not going to shoot black powder so I will keep the pressure down and stay around 1,500 fps.   If you read Philip Sharpe’s book, Complete Guide to Handloading page 401, he shows breech pressures and with some powders you produce more breech pressure at a lower speed than others.  Unfortunately like most manuals he only goes up to the 45-90.   With 125 grains of FFe the factory load went 1690 fps at the muzzle, according to Barnes. 

While doing research I found in one of the books that toilet paper as a filler was determined to be the best.  I will have to sit down and go through at least a half dozen books to find out which one had the section on fillers.  When I do I’ll post it.  

In Clyde “Snooky” Williamson’s book, Winchester Lever Legacy, he has a page about using modern powder and reduced loads in black powder cartridges.  This was one of the first loading books I bought in 1988.  He mentions 4198, 4895, 4064, 4350, 4320, and 3031. With 3031 and 4895 being the most consistent.  See page 617.  I use all of these in one caliber or another.  In some cases I developed loads with 3 different powders.  He developed his loads after years of consulting with Elmer Keith, P.O. Ackley and  Lyman’s cast books.  He says that if he doesn’t use a filler between the powder and the bullet, velocities are erratic.  He tried cream of wheat, grits, corn meal, dacron and kapok.  Toilet paper is what he uses.   That’s enough for me.  I have always used toilet paper. 

I’m not going to get into the blown up barrels that were caused when the powder flashed over the top.  Read P.O. Ackley’s book.  It has happened and I’m not going to try to reproduce it.   Keep the powder near the primer. 

TXGunNut said
Snooky’s book gave me the reassurance to use a filler when using position-sensitive powders but as Bert points out some are not. Many of today’s powders don’t have the issues Snooky ran into in his day. Position and temperature sensitivity are reportedly not a factor with 4198. I’d prefer not to use fillers.
 
Mike
  

Mike you know I value your opinion, but until I see a noted author/shooter put some of the specifics about not needing a filler for specific powders in print, I’m playing it safe.  Snooky was using the same powders including 4198.  The 45 EX is the largest and has the most case volume, next to the 50 EX.  I have experienced erratic speeds when not using a filler or not getting it to hold the powder near the primer in smaller cases.  You have to remember I’m going to end up with about 34 grains in a case that can hold 125 grains.  There is about 2 3/4″ of empty space between the case head and the bullet.  And on the other hand, has anyone seen facts why I shouldn’t?

Let the powder spread out along the case and you can get flash over.  Authors have printed flash over events and guns blowing up.  Just like speed being an indicator of pressure.  With certain powders it is true but with others it isn’t.  Since most loading manuals don’t give you the chamber pressures I play it safe. 

This rifle is 138 years old and not easily replaced.  Let alone my ugly face. 

I’ve said this before.  I bought a chronograph in the late 80’s before I started loading.  I have chronographed almost every shot since the beginning.  (not some of the 22 RF’s).  Believe me, Cartridges of the World is always used when I’m trying a new load.  As are about 6 other references.  I use 4198 in at least 5 different black powder cartridges.   When reliable data is available I use 3 different powders to see which one shoots best in my rifle. 

Jeff’s new book is what I read when I have down time.  I am building a F Class rifle in 284 Shehane.  Wildcat 284 Win.  I need to get the stock in the mail to have it CNC’d so I can install the action and trigger guard. My barrel is in Oregon for reaming the chamber.  I am working at changing out my 6.5 CM barrel. I have shot out my second barrel.  This happens about every 2,000 rounds. The barrels are prefit for the action so I can install this one myself.  Then I’ll have to fine tune the powder and bullet seating depth to suit this new barrel. The twist is a little faster, 1:7.7 for the new 153.5 grain bullets.  I will be shooting and loading a 308 bench gun along with the 45 EX each week.  And then there is the wife’s list. 

Mike, I spent a couple more hours going through Jeff’s book.  I wish I had a couple of rifles to compare as I go.  It’s hard for me to grasp everything when there are sooo many model variations.

I sure had less problems shooting BP.  But I hate the mess.  The BP Cartridge Competitors that shoot at the range do use a few grains of Smokeless then the BP.  They have new rifles with great sights or scopes.  They pour their own bullets. Most bullets are 500 gr to 600 gr.   Maybe they would pour some for the EX?  I only have 300 gr and 405gr and they are not target quality.   Since I don’t shoot the 45-70’s that much I haven’t used any 500 or 550’s. 

I shot some more rounds with different powders and fillers.

The first ones I shot with 4198 and a small amount of TP gave me results that were erratic.

444 fps, 649 fps, 1,136 fps, 830, fps and 1,115 fps.  I was fighting several other things too.  My chronograph battery is giving me problems and none of these had much, if any, neck tension.  I need a better way to keep the powder near the primer so it all goes off at once.   And neck tension would be nice.  I need to call Lee Precision and see if they have a crimp die that will work with the large diameter just below the neck.  It needs to be shorter or larger in the body area.  This was the 3rd firing for these. 

Yesterday the ones I shot with the 31 grains of 4198 were erratic but better as far as the fps.  These had not been fired before so there was a lot of neck tension.   

1,244 fps, the next one only the primer ignited, 1,228 fps.  The 2 that fired did not fire form the case as uniformly as the black powder did.  So I did not shoot the last 2.  These had a felt wad over the powder then TP to the bullet.  I do remember that one of the felt wads was not flat over the powder charge and was at a slant.  This may have been the one that did not ignite?  I do my best to keep the cartridges with the bullets up.  I ordered a box that will hold this length cartridges and allow the cases to be put in, bullet up.  

I pulled the bullets on the 2 and dumped out the 4198.  I will load these with black powder and shoot all 5 again. 

As a side note.  The RCBS impact hammer device for pulling bullets does not work well with this length cartridge.  The final hit each time caused the entire case to fly out of the hammer and over my shoulder.  Luckily the TP kept the powder in the case.  You need a spacer so you have more room in the device so the bullet can come out unobstructed.