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November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
I have restocked a couple of M70’s and replacement stocks generally have a generous recess for the recoil lug and bedding the lug to the stock is usually necessary. Some like to bed the rear tang as well. Factory stocks generally have a tighter fit. I saw a 2009 vintage Super Grade that had a bead of what looked like hot glue across the recoil lug recess. 
I generally try “tight” on the front and rear screws, snug on the middle, apparently I follow the same “conventional wisdom” as Lou. The front and rear screws pull the barreled action into the stock, I only tighten the middle screw enough to keep it from vibrating out. Overtightening the front and rear screws compresses and damages the wood between the screw and the barreled action, IMHO. The new “conventional wisdom” favors pillar bedding but that has no place in a collector firearm like your Model 70. On rifles like my BACO M70 Super Grade the middle screw has been omitted.
Mike
I think I have finished the bullet seating depth tests. At first I thought .010″ from the lands was going to work out the best. But not so.
After firing these 4 times here is the average of the groups.
.005″ from the lands 2.106″
.010″ 1.672″
.015″ 1.138″
.020″ 2.142″
.025″ 1.651″
Here is the latest target. I am going to load 50 rounds and test what happens when I change the screw setting in the forearm that goes into the band on the barrel. This should change the barrel harmonics and possibly the group size and point of impact.
If this was my target rifle I would load some seated at .013″, .014″, .016″ and .017″ to find how wide the bullet seating node is and then seat in the middle of the node. Often after this I’d do a fine powder test to make sure I’m still in the middle of the powder node. But, and this is a big but, this barrel will never shoot sub 1/2 MOA groups consistently. There is a possibility that it may shoot better with a 130 gr. bullet or different powder or primer.
One thing I have been wondering is using a boat tail bullet best for these rifles? Maybe a flat base might work better? Flat base bullets have more bearing surface for the grooves to grab.
Chuck said
One thing I have been wondering is using a boat tail bullet best for these rifles? Maybe a flat base might work better? Flat base bullets have more bearing surface for the grooves to grab.
I believe that it is definitely worth exploring. I discovered many years ago that my 7×57 MM shoots much better with 130-gr flat-base bullets than it does with 130-BTs.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Chuck said
One thing I have been wondering is using a boat tail bullet best for these rifles? Maybe a flat base might work better? Flat base bullets have more bearing surface for the grooves to grab.
I believe that it is definitely worth exploring. I discovered many years ago that my 7×57 MM shoots much better with 130-gr flat-base bullets than it does with 130-BTs.
Bert
I found this to be true when I developed a hunting load for my Newton. The Newton has a different style of rifling not used much these days and I found that it wouldn’t group boat tails. Sinclair was the go to guys back then when it came to accuracy. They are the ones that told me to try a flat base and it worked. I guess I should pull a factory Newton bullet and check it out? I might have some factory 270 somewhere too? I have been shooting factory 130 gr Winchester ammo as foulers . They shoot over 3000 fps and wild as can be.
I pulled one of the bullets from the Winchester ammo I was using as foulers. Flat base.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
I’ve never had much luck with BT bullets, I think they generally don’t offer much ballistically inside of 300 yards and my rifles seem very happy with traditional Spitzer bullets. The only exceptions for me are .223 and 22-250. I don’t recall the twist in your M70 so it may like them. My 30-06’s seem to have a dislike for them but I’ll be revisiting that in a future project. I think my 30-06’s have too slow a twist to keep a BT bullet happy but that’s just a hunch. Just started my second cocktail so tables and calculators are not on my agenda tonight.
Mike
I tightened the forearm screw. I’m sorry I forgot to check the torque setting. I fired 3 shot groups starting at tight then 1/4 turn increments out. Today I shot from tight to 1 3/4 turns loose. I expected to see a sine wave effect and a group size change. The group was better on the 1/4 turn and then got worse. The point of impact did change. It got higher and then at group 6 it looked like it was going down but group 8 messed that up. I will shoot the other half of the loads next week. I expect the groups to create a sine wave.
Target shooters use a barrel tuner to create this same effect. You are trying to find the spot where the bullet exits when the wave is at it’s slowest. These waves go back and forth along the barrel. At each end it has to slow down to change direction. At long range matches where your ammo is already loaded the weather conditions will make you change the tuner setting. Bench rest shooters can change the powder charge or bullet seating depth between each round of the match. Some shooters don’t do bullet seating tests. They set to a certain depth and use the tuner to find the best spot. I like to do the powder ladder tests then the bullet seating tests and use the tuner to fine tune the load.
I fired the last 8 3 shot targets. I re fired #8 at 1 3/4 turns out because it should have grouped lower. Well it did but I must have fired the first shot into group #1. You can see an extra shot in #1. Then at #11, 2 1/4 turns out things got flat. My best group occurred at #13 at 2 3/4 turns out.
Well I ran out of ammo. I might shoot some groups to verify a couple. 2 3/4 to 3 1/4 turns out to compare with tight and 1/4 turn turn out.
I stopped at the range store and bought some 130 grain bullets that are flat base as apposed to the boat tails I have been shooting. I will play with a couple of these and see what happens.
I loaded 50 rounds with the 130 grain flat based bullets. I looked at the speeds that were produced when shooting the 145″s. I was getting 2700 fps with a lighter load than what 2 loading manuals said I should use. So I picked a load a little lighter than what the books said would produce 2800 fps. I loaded 10 cases at 54.2 grs. Then 10 at 54.4, 54.6, 54.8 and 55.0. We’ll see what happens. The factory ammo with flat based 130 grain bullets I had been using as foulers shot around 3000 fps but shot wild.
I broke the Hornady tool used to find the length where the ogive of the bullet touches the lands, again. When I made the dummy case I did not thread it perfectly straight so when I tried to force it into alignment it broke the tool. So I used the same seating depth I had used on the 145’s. I can clearly see this is not correct but it is a starting point where I feel the bullets are not into the lands. I’ll buy another tool and figure out where these bullets touch the lands.
What 130 grn bullets did you end up getting?
Just my opinion, I’ve used the Nosler 130 grain ballistic tip bullets or years (with boat tail, for hunting, but they also print well on the target) at 58.5 grn H4831, and use that load for my son’s 1952 vintage M70. Would start though at 57 grn and work my way up. Groups seemed to get better with increased velocity.
https://www.nosler.com/270-winchester (see the 130 grn ballistic tip bullet selection).
Whether its my 223 (RR), 243 (Sako), 270 (Rem700 & M70), or 7MM Rem Mag (Rem Sendero), they all shoot my loads with Nosler ballistic tip bullets well with MOA groups. For 30-06 (M70) I use the Speer HotCore 165 grn flat base bullets (M70).
As for factory ammo, the best Ive found for 270 is the 130 grn Federal Fusion with MOA from my Rem 700, have not tried it in the M70. Winchester ammo your using for burners are just that, burners, likely good for game not so reliable for precision shooting IMHO.
These suggestions may not fit your exact agenda but had to offer to maybe save some time and resources. Good luck.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown said
What 130 grn bullets did you end up getting?Just my opinion, I’ve used the Nosler 130 grain ballistic tip bullets or years (with boat tail, for hunting, but they also print well on the target) at 58.5 grn H4831, and use that load for my son’s 1952 vintage M70. Would start though at 57 grn and work my way up. Groups seemed to get better with increased velocity.
https://www.nosler.com/270-winchester (see the 130 grn ballistic tip bullet selection).
Whether its my 223 (RR), 243 (Sako), 270 (Rem700 & M70), or 7MM Rem Mag (Rem Sendero), they all shoot my loads with Nosler ballistic tip bullets well with MOA groups. For 30-06 (M70) I use the Speer HotCore 165 grn flat base bullets (M70).
As for factory ammo, the best Ive found for 270 is the 130 grn Federal Fusion with MOA from my Rem 700, have not tried it in the M70. Winchester ammo your using for burners are just that, burners, likely good for game not so reliable for precision shooting IMHO.
These suggestions may not fit your exact agenda but had to offer to maybe save some time and resources. Good luck.
Chris, I bought what the gun store had. Hornady 130 gr SP Interlock. These are a soft point and flat base. I really have no agenda or plans to hunt with this rifle. I was trying to see what would happen with this old rifle using a more modern approach as far as the load development. I have little prior experience with Modern bolt action rifles other than my Target rifles. But, I did load my 1916 256 Newton in the early 90’s. But I haven’t shot that rifle more than a few times since then. The Newton groups better than the Model 70 even with the older techniques. When I was young we couldn’t use rifles. We had to use shotguns. Where I live now hunting on public land is terrible. My body can’t take mountain climbing anymore. If I get the urge to shoot the Model 70 after I play with these bullets I will surely try the Noslers. I did try a Nosler in the Newton but the type of rifling in the Newton would not stabilize the 3 different 140 gr. boat tail bullets I tried. It likes a flat based bullet.
For about six months now I’ve been playing with the Model 70. I have a 6mm and a 7mm in the works that need my attention. I’m building a 6mm Br and a 284 Shehane. The Shehane is a wildcat Win 284 for 1,000 yds. The 6mm is a bench rest cartridge for close range out to 300 yds.
Thanks for the info.
Good afternoon, Chuck. You’ve devoted plenty of carefully considered time and effort in evaluating a typical Pre64 Model 70, to explore its accuracy limits with modern powders and projectiles. A worthy and interesting project that should add a piece of useful knowledge to the Model 70 story.
The late Jack O’Connor wrote his various Model 70 rifles (some built by the best custom stockmakers of the day) would from the bench shoot 100 yard groups averaging between 1.5 to 1.75 inches with factory ammunition and good handloads, although on good days when his “wibbles” compensated for his “wobbles” they might shoot between 1 to 1.25 inches. He considered these levels of accuracy more than adequate for any game hunting, including antelope and sheep.
Given your studies of this 270 caliber Model 70, would you disagree with O’Connor?
Best,
Bill
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
While pre-64 M70’s Standard Rifles are plenty accurate for use as hunting rifles they were never intended to be used as dedicated bench rest guns
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 5, 2014
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This is for Tedk…
While it’s not exactly “bench rest” shooting, somebody thought that the pre-64 M70 was a Target Rifle… 
This from American Rifleman in 1938. New World Record of (106) consecutive bull’s eyes at 1000 yards… 
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
This is for Tedk…While it’s not exactly “bench rest” shooting, somebody thought that the pre-64 M70 was a Target Rifle…
This from American Rifleman in 1938. New World Record of (106) consecutive bull’s eyes at 1000 yards…
Lou
Very interesting Lou. I wonder how large the “bullseye” was.
Zebulon said
Good afternoon, Chuck. You’ve devoted plenty of carefully considered time and effort in evaluating a typical Pre64 Model 70, to explore its accuracy limits with modern powders and projectiles. A worthy and interesting project that should add a piece of useful knowledge to the Model 70 story.The late Jack O’Connor wrote his various Model 70 rifles (some built by the best custom stockmakers of the day) would from the bench shoot 100 yard groups averaging between 1.5 to 1.75 inches with factory ammunition and good handloads, although on good days when his “wibbles” compensated for his “wobbles” they might shoot between 1 to 1.25 inches. He considered these levels of accuracy more than adequate for any game hunting, including antelope and sheep.
Given your studies of this 270 caliber Model 70, would you disagree with O’Connor?
Best,
Bill
I could never disagree with Mr. O’Conner. But, I only have experience with this rifle. I bet it might have shot better 73 years ago. 73 years ago I was 2 and I have no idea how I shot. Wildly, I’m sure. 
November 7, 2015
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Zebulon said
Good afternoon, Chuck. You’ve devoted plenty of carefully considered time and effort in evaluating a typical Pre64 Model 70, to explore its accuracy limits with modern powders and projectiles. A worthy and interesting project that should add a piece of useful knowledge to the Model 70 story.The late Jack O’Connor wrote his various Model 70 rifles (some built by the best custom stockmakers of the day) would from the bench shoot 100 yard groups averaging between 1.5 to 1.75 inches with factory ammunition and good handloads, although on good days when his “wibbles” compensated for his “wobbles” they might shoot between 1 to 1.25 inches. He considered these levels of accuracy more than adequate for any game hunting, including antelope and sheep.
Given your studies of this 270 caliber Model 70, would you disagree with O’Connor?
Best,
Bill
I don’t expect MOA accuracy from a sporting rifle but it’s pretty exciting when we do find one. I learned to reload (and shoot) with just such a rifle. Sometimes the only way to find out if a rifle is capable of such accuracy is to methodically search for a load or loads it likes. Unfortunately I’m a slow learner and after thousands of rounds a bit of rifling let go and it went from exceptional to unacceptable. I have high hopes for the flat base bullets Chuck is trying, I’ve had limited success with BT bullets.
I don’t believe I own an MOA rifle at the moment but feel confident my presbyopia will team up with my own wibbles and wobbles so I’ll never know. My definition of an MOA rifle is one that will consistently place ten rounds inside MOA at 100 yards. Industry standard seems to be “three shots sometimes”. For example my 2009 vintage Super Grade was adverteased as “MOA” and after one warranty replacement and repair I finally have what they feel qualifies as MOA. I feel confident Chuck’s .270 is an above average specimen and may very well be capable of MOA.
Mike
Chuck said
Zebulon said
Good afternoon, Chuck. You’ve devoted plenty of carefully considered time and effort in evaluating a typical Pre64 Model 70, to explore its accuracy limits with modern powders and projectiles. A worthy and interesting project that should add a piece of useful knowledge to the Model 70 story.
The late Jack O’Connor wrote his various Model 70 rifles (some built by the best custom stockmakers of the day) would from the bench shoot 100 yard groups averaging between 1.5 to 1.75 inches with factory ammunition and good handloads, although on good days when his “wibbles” compensated for his “wobbles” they might shoot between 1 to 1.25 inches. He considered these levels of accuracy more than adequate for any game hunting, including antelope and sheep.
Given your studies of this 270 caliber Model 70, would you disagree with O’Connor?
Best,
Bill
I could never disagree with Mr. O’Conner. But, I only have experience with this rifle. I bet it might have shot better 73 years ago. 73 years ago I was 2 and I have no idea how I shot. Wildly, I’m sure.
Chuck, Well said. I was only 8 at the time and my groups were being made with a Red Ryder at maybe 5 yards; not MOA. I do still recall the day a very unlucky blackbird on our back yard power line came within the RR’s angle of dispersion. I was as surprised as he was.
Except for wild turkeys and one or two Blue quail i wanted for my supper, that was (almost) the last bird I’ve “ground sluiced.”
From what you’ve posted that I’ve read, I remain unconvinced your Model 70 would have shot better those decades ago. We know that, for the most part, factory ammunition today is more consistent and some of it is at or near match grade. Thanks to computer analysis, we have a better idea of how and why to set the torque numbers for the Model 70 action bolts and the forward barrel tensioning screw. I’m guessing the unknowable total round count on that 270 isn’t high enough to seriously coarsen the chamber throat, just because hunting caliber rifles usually don’t get shot enough to affect accuracy– at least until you get hold of it!
My premise is that, as game hunting has steadily become more and more expensive, excluding more and more shooters, shooting for group and striving for accuracy is becoming a substitute, a fact not lost on our manufacturers.
More and more of the big print ads show a prototypical Rugged Outdoorsman carrying a gigantic elk rack on his shoulder, with what looks like a 15 pound, adjustable in all axes, competition rifle with a 30 inch heavy contour barrel and foot-long suppressor, strapped to his manly torso. A scope half the length of the rifle has an objective lens the size of a gallon paint bucket and surely weighs 5 pounds all by itself.
The Message: you NEED this gear to look like a successful elk hunter, although you will probably never hunt elk. Get out your checkbook and validate your manhood with a rifle priced like a new Tacoma.
Fewer and fewer of us actually experience seeing the apparent size of a target put up “only” 300 yards away. As the late Colonel Charles Askins put it, 300 yards is “just one hell of a long way” to be shooting at a game animal. And Charlie was a highly experienced, World-wide hunter of dangerous and otherwise game, for many years. In addition to having been our National Pistol Champion at Camp Perry.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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