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November 7, 2015
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I like the way he explains bump. Since I load 30-06 for multiple rifles I have to bump it back to nearly new dimensions. OTOH I’ve been using new brass for the last several years for hunting ammo. I’ve always avoided belted cases, I never thought about headspacing them on the shoulder.
Mike
He has an entire loading series that is easy to understand.
As far as using the base to shoulder method of head spacing belted magnums you can only do this after you head space off the belt first.
The last 10 groups I shot were 2,671 to 2,782 fps. The 53.6 to 53.9 loads are in the 2,745 fps range. Highest this time was 2,782 fps.
Loaded another 50 rounds. 10 each of the 5 charge weights. It is a mini powder ladder test. All loads are between 53.3 and 54.1 grains .2 grains apart.
I might have messed up. I watched the weather forecast all week and it looked like it would be cold and windy. I had thought about taking a second rifle if the weather was bad but I forgot until I was pulling out of the driveway. I should have stopped and got some ammo and another rifle. Well it was a lot colder than the other days that I had tested. But no wind. 4 of the 5 groups shot slower than before. The other one was higher?
All of the groups produced good ES under 20 fps. 2 of the groups did shoot under 1″ Luckily I still have the other identical 5 groups. I will take a second rifle next week.
I took my 6.5 CM that I haven’t shot since July. I had 20 loaded rounds. What a dream to shoot compared to the 270. No recoil, likes to group and an 8 oz trigger. I shot 4 ea 5 shot groups. 2 good and 2 bad. .307″ and .440″. .603″ and .660″. Both of the bad ones were .4’s if I removed a flyer. 2686 to 2719 fps with a 147 gr bullet. Usually flyers are my fault for not holding the rifle correctly. Like staying on the rifle until the bullet hits the target and not lifting up too early. And all of this with 1,565 rounds through the barrel.
The 270 with a 145 gr bullet shot 2712 to 2755 FPS. 73 year old barrel with an unknown amount of shots down the barrel, lot of recoil and a 4 1/2 lb trigger. 2 groups under 2″. Last week the same loads shot better in the 52 degree weather than the 62 degree weather. A 10 degree temperature is really not enough to change the FPS or the group size much at all. Walked away really not knowing where to go next? I want to pick 1 or 2 and do some bullet seating depth testing.
I will think on this. A second option is to shoot 3 loads next week to narrow it down. The Pro’s shoot 1 to 3 shot groups but I am not a pro so I shoot larger groups. If I test some more next week I will shoot 3 shot groups. Like I said before, the first 2 shots is the best group you can get. It can get worse though.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
I’m a big fan of 10-shot groups. They give me a chance to totally ruin a group but I think they tell me more about the load and rifle. That may not be necessary for precision rifles but it seems to be for sporting rifles. For load development I’ll generally shoot a couple of 5-round groups. I’m not a good enough shooter to depend on a 3-shot group for anything useful, my only exception is a T/C Contender in .35 Remington. It is exceedingly accurate but brutal to shoot off the bench (and the muzzle brake will clear out the peanut gallery in short order). I feel I can learn all I need to know after three shots with that hand cannon! I feel quite certain that if you shoot three-shot groups with one of the three loads your .270 seems to like you will soon shoot a sub-MOA or smaller group. May be time for a new recoil pad, those PAST pads are awesome but they do harden with age, or maybe I get softer with age.
Looking forward to reading your article in the “Collector”.
Mike
Mike, in any shooting discipline the more you shoot the better you can see what is really going on. That’s where the SD comes in. A low SD with just a few shots doesn’t mean much. But a low SD with hundreds of shots says a lot more. I almost always shoot 5 shot groups. But a lot of them. When doing some testing I can get away with 3 shots. But again, just for a few things. The recoil with the 270 is OK as long as I pay attention where I place the butt. Have to stay off the collar bone. This rifle has shot sub MOA on various occasions but just not with any consistency.
Brad helped me a lot with the article. I have never done this before.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-I got to read the article today, great job! I’m familiar with some of the events described and have heard of Graves but much of the info was new to me. Brad has been a patient and helpful resource in my writing attempts, he even supplied an elusive tidbit that I wanted to include but was a bit fuzzy on. Rob took the pics for my 1903 article. Great team! I just remembered I need to take a copy of our magazine to the TGCA show this weekend, great recruiting tool!
I’ll never be a precision shooter and have not studied SD’s as you have but I’ve had some pretty good luck with sporting rifles. If I sell a few guns this weekend I may try to score a nice Model 70 this weekend. I always said I would not chase a pre-64 M70 but your 270 project has started the wheels turning.
Mike
Thanks Mike. I should have mentioned that he often used a Model 70. Louis Luttrell had found some pictures of Graves in the archives at Cody when researching the Model 70. No one knows how they got there.
I really don’t pay that much attention to SD. I watch the ES. Not to say SD isn’t important but if you lower your ES so goes the SD. With 5 shot groups the SD is always a little less than half of the ES. An ES of 20 is good. It took me a long time to get into the middle teens.
But what counts is the groups size.
Loaded up a half box this time. Doing some fine tuning with the powder. Weather looks good for tomorrow. For a long time I’ve wanted to start playing with the upper barrel screw but I know that I am not supposed to change 2 things at once. I thought it was weird that this screw was not tight when I checked it out. Later I found out why. I should have not messed with it. My target guns have tuners on the barrel for changing the harmonics of the barrel. You are looking for the best timing when the bullet exits the barrel. Testing the tuner is after all the other testing is complete. So I have to wait.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
Hope you get some good weather, things a bit unsettled around here. Next time we have good shooting weather I’ll be painting so please get out there and do some good so I can enjoy the range report!
Mike
Was able to shoot my final powder tests. I shot groups with 53.2, 53.5, 53.6, and 53.8 grains. Some time back I thought 53.7 grains would be the number. But 53.5 has shot more sub MOA groups than all of the others. 53.6 was second. I should have, but did not, test 53.4 just to see how wide the node might be. I can always test this later. The 53.5 grains shot .776″, .796″ and .981″ groups this time.
I am going to load 53.5 grains and test seating depths at .005″ increments off the lands. I had been shooting .010″ off the lands. So I will start with 5 groups .005″ to .025″ off the lands.
I forgot that I had bought some cheap 270 ammo so I used some as foulers this time. 3 shots got the barrel up to temp but did not produce groups for another 3 rounds. This ammo has 130 grain bullets and looked promising. After I did my powder tests I shot 3 more of the 130’s. The first shot hit right where I aimed but the other 2 didn’t. They shot about 300 fps faster.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
Sounds like your rifle would like the factory ammo if QC were a bit better. Glad you found your rifle’s powder charge, will be hard to improve on that. Over 4″ of rain on already soggy ground earlier today, my place is still mostly underwater so no range trip for me!
Mike
I had some brass already primed so I loaded the 15 cases with 53.5 grains of the H 4831 SC. I seated 3 at .005″ off the lands then 3 more at .010″, .015″, .020″ and finally the last 3 at .025″ off the lands. We’ve had some bad weather lately, even some rain. I’m hoping this all blows out before Tuesday. I can shoot in light rain but the wind in these canyons can get real bad.
I shot the 15 rounds on Tuesday. I attached a picture of the target. I had to show some of the surrounding area because my first shot and tenth shot missed the target. It was not raining at the range and there was no wind. Lots of fog. 58 degrees was the high.
The bottom right target is .005″ of the lands. Then going counter clockwise ending in the middle at .005″ seating depth increments.
On the bottom right you can see my first shot was off the target high right. This shot was after I had shot 5 foulers to warm the barrel. Not only was this shot way off target it was the slowest shot of the 15? .005″ off the lands shot 2.079″, .010″ 1.92″, 015″ 1.118″, .020″ 2.895″ with one shot off the target right and .025″ 1.38″.
I plan to shoot these same seating depths a few more times to see if one stands out from the others. I may even seat some farther out from the lands.
I know I’m behind. Blame it on Greeley. I have shot the same bullet seating depths 3 times now. I will post the targets later. .005″ jump from the lands has an average of 2.032″ groups. .010″ average is 1.376″. .015″ average is 1.110″. .020″ average is 2.428″. .025″ is 1.707″.
So .015″ jump looks the best and .010″ jump in second. I will shoot all of these these one more time and then shoot the 2 best a couple times. After that I will load the best one and start playing with the forward stock screw to see what happens.
November 7, 2015
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Getting close! Don’t know what to tell you on the stock screw other than what we’ve talked about before. I’m convinced that is part of the personality of the rifle. Have you checked to see what kind of contact the recoil lug is making with the stock? That’s one area I’ve been able to improve accuracy on the few sporters I’ve dabbled with but I’m thinking you have a pretty snug fit based on your groups. I’ve never used a torque wrench for that, mine is rather old and low-tech by today’s standards.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Getting close! Don’t know what to tell you on the stock screw other than what we’ve talked about before. I’m convinced that is part of the personality of the rifle. Have you checked to see what kind of contact the recoil lug is making with the stock? That’s one area I’ve been able to improve accuracy on the few sporters I’ve dabbled with but I’m thinking you have a pretty snug fit based on your groups. I’ve never used a torque wrench for that, mine is rather old and low-tech by today’s standards.
Mike
Mike, I’m not quite sure what you mean? I have no prior experience with a Model 70. What do you do to the recoil lug? I did not torque any of the screws but I did find the front one loose. So dumb me tightened it. I’m going to shoot it then move the screw out 1 turn at a time and see what happens to the groups. Modern rifles can have tuners on the end of the barrel that will screw in or out. They do the same thing as changing the bullet seating depth. It changes the bullet exit timing. You try to find the spot where the exit is aligned with the harmonics of the barrel.
November 5, 2014
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Hi Chuck-
“Conventional Wisdom” (meaning not my personal experience) says that the tension on the barrel bedding screw of a Model 70 standard barrel (the one that goes through the bottom of the stock fore end) can have a large impact on group size. Usually it’s the first thing you mess with when a M70 isn’t shooting as expected.
Since the barrel is more or less contact bedded the whole length, I suppose that the tension on that screw affects barrel vibration (hence accuracy), in different ways depending on the individual stock. Some rifles shoot best with it tight and others with it loose or even removed… Sometimes the barrel bedding screw escutcheon into which the bedding screw inserts, isn’t exactly centered, causing more pressure on one side of the barrel than the other when the screw is tight. Even drifting that escutcheon a little bit one way or the other can “fix” an accuracy problem… Trial and error…
Naturally, as a “purist” collector (and not a bench rest shooter), I do not/would not bed the recoil lug. In designing the M70, Winchester moved the front action screw back, such that it screws into the bedding flat behind the recoil lug rather than into the bottom of the lug like a M54 (or Mauser/Springfield). This was supposed to provide greater clamping surface between action and stock and enhance accuracy. Again “conventional wisdom” says that the front action screw should be tight (like Mike I don’t believe in torque wrenches when it comes to wood stocks), the rear action screw (behind the trigger guard) should also be tight, and the middle action screw (front of trigger guard) should only be “snug”…
YMMV…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Thank you Lou. I do not mess with my collector guns. I shoot the target guns because I love to shoot. If I wear out a barrel I just buy another one.
After I went over the rifle cleaning and oiling it I raised the rifle straight up while pulling the barrel down I then tightened the bottom screw tightly. I could not find any torque settings. The one in the front of the magazine not so tight because I was told that too tight might bind something up? The front one is where I think I messed up. I have a couple different types of actions for my target rifles. Some use a lug that is between the action/receiver and the barrel and the other, the more expensive type, has a integral bottom lug. I’m not going to take the barrel off this action and bed it. Most people will at least float their barrel but there is no way to do this on the Model 70.
Once I finish with this project I probably won’t shoot the rifle much or maybe never. I used this to show a procedure for load development. The most important thing to take from this is the proper way to control the head space. So many old rifles have head space issues because the former owners did nothing to control it.
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