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March 31, 2009
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Mother nature threw a curve ball at me on Tuesday. The temps last week were in the 80’s. This week in the mid to high 60’s. Weather forecast was for the 80’s again. The 2 best groups were still at about the same load as last time. 1.115″ and 1.123″. The others not so good. All over 2″.
I did fire a couple of the Fiochi’s. I’m beginning to think these may be reloads? They shot in the 2800’s but did create heavy bolt lift and flatter primers. I have shot some other 130’s in the 3000 fps range and did not get any pressure signs. Goes to show fps does not necessarily tell the whole story. This powder is creating too much pressure while producing a slower speed. These will be put in the trash can at the range for unfired ammo.
I did not clean the barrel this time. It took 3 foulers and 2 other shots to calm the groups down.
November 7, 2015
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Sounds like you have the load for that bullet, Chuck. Have you concluded this rifle doesn’t do well with a clean bore?
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Clean or dirty this barrel does not shoot it’s best until it has about 5 or 6 rounds through it. If close enough you’d still hit a deer with the first shot. You need to know where your first shot goes with all rifles. I think on Tuesday I will shoot up what I have loaded. Then I will reload the cases with a couple loads varying .1 and .2 grains and call it good. I have several other projects that need my attention. Maybe one of them I might write about?
November 7, 2015
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It’s been an adventure, Chuck. I’m mainly interested in where the first shot goes from a cold bore. I’ll be applying some of what I learned in this thread with a similar project in the near future. I have a sister rifle to the M670 that shot so well for me 35-40 years ago. It’s been a loaner/backup rifle on my brother’s deer lease for last ten years or so and hasn’t seen much use lately. If a shooter 30-06 M70 doesn’t follow me home from Cody next month I’ll explore that cartridge and rifle for awhile. I have an embarrassing supply of 4350 powder on hand and lots of once fired brass. All I need is a couple thousand bullets. If I use a pre-64 M70 I’ll consider writing an article about it.
I had one rifle that won’t shoot clean, it’s been my brother’s “bad weather” hunting rifle (stainless/composite M77) for 10-15 years and it’s shot a truckload of deer and hogs since it was cleaned last. His Winchesters are too pretty to hunt with in ugly weather and that M77 is a great shooter as long as you don’t clean it.
Rifles can have difficult personalities but some are worth getting to know. Sounds like you have that 270 figured out. All things considered it turned out to be a pretty good rifle. Good job!
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Thanks Mike see you in Cody.
I did go out in the garage last night and mess with the Hornady lock and load tool. I had drilled ant taped another case. The last one I got sloppy and didn’t thread it straight. I hate using these tools. It’s a pain in the you know what and had to do it 9 times before I felt I had the best touch point. The bullets are seated .025″ off the lands. I knew that they would be farther off than the 145’s but now I know for sure.
March 31, 2009
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Here is the target I shot today. This will be my last. I will reload the brass and pack it away. I’m taking the scope off and putting it back on the donor rifle. I will remove the scope mounts and re install the sling swivels.
The most important thing to take away from this is that you need to fire form your cases to max length then set a proper head space.
I was doing some powder testing on each side of the best load I had found. The temp was 75 degrees so that was better than last week. I shot one group less than 1 MOA and 2 just over 1 MOA. I didn’t shoot any foulers. The first group is on the bottom right then counter clockwise. The barrel was not cleaned. The first shot went way high.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck-
All things considered it was a good project. This gun has been around for over 70 years enduring treatment we’ll never be privy to. It’s a tribute to Winchester engineering and craftsmanship IMHO that this sporter shoots as well as it does. Upon reflection I may just re-stock that 670 instead of buying a M70 next week. It will have zero collector value but I’m confident it has only seen a few hundred rounds over the last 40 years. I bought it for my dad but he only went hunting to enjoy the time in the woods and in camp with my brother and me.
I’m looking forward to your next adventure.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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I have an idea for my next adventure but it is to early to know if it is even feasible. I will talk with you at Cody.
March 31, 2009
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I know I said I was done posting but after getting everything done I took a couple of picks. The rifle is cleaned, stripped and ready to go into the safe. I won’t miss cleaning this rifle. Look at all the patches it took to get the copper out. I used both sides of each patch.
On the last day I shot the Model 70 I also shot 3 powder charges with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Bottom right and bottom left are the same charge weight. Bottom right was 5 foulers. Top left I jerked the trigger on the high hit. I need to get used to shooting this one again. I haven’t shot it since April of 2024.
April 3, 2018
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Chuck:
My pre-64 M-70s in 270 shoot pretty well. Last year I found a 1953 M-70 at a very nice price. A rescue rifle…Put a Lyman Alaskan on it. They like H-4831 SC.
It shoots pretty well. I should thoroughly clean the bore, but then…?? These Model 70s grow on you…I have too many, and even a Model 54 NRA Short Rifle that came out of Montana-in 270. It needs 4064 or 4895 with the short barrel…or CFS 223 to keep it clean.
Ridge Marriott
NRA-Life
January 20, 2023
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Chuck, my understanding of the goal of this project was to take a run of the mine pre-64 Model 70, in this case a 1952 standard rifle 270 caliber with an unknown round count but no obvious anomalies, and see whether the use of modern components and careful load development could improve its accuracy from what was once expected of it, say better than 2 moa. [I’m not sure of your starting assumptions.]
After all of your work with this rifle, with your best load on a Standard Day (50F at sea level, windless conditions) what sort of 3 shot group could you prognosticate from its cold, clean barrel?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
January 20, 2023
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And Mike, I encourage you to work with that M670. Amidst all the furor over the 1964 through about 1967 Model 70 production, the 670 stayed under the radar except for a few astute observers who saw it for what it was: A bargain that was likely to shoot like blazes.
For all the howling about the loss of “controlled round feeding” [something nobody gave a fig about while standing in line to buy Remington’s 700 BDL], the post-63 action is stiffer than its predecessor and, when combined with a hammer-forged barrel and a blind magazine, the 670 is physically capable of startling accuracy, without reference to price.
I’m reminded of the Remington 733, a design for an inexpensive centerfire for “blue collar deer hunters who couldn’t afford a Model 700.” They should never have let the brilliant Wayne Leek near the project because the 733 could put the 700V in the shade for a fraction of the price. A hunting partner of mine had one in 22-250 that, out of the box, routinely put 5-shot groups into less than inch with factory Core-Lokt. Big Green is said to have withdrawn the gun from the market because it was diluting the soup, birch stock and all.
Winchester’s push-feed version of the Model 70 action makes a better target/varmint rifle than its past and current CRF action. The reason is not rocket science. [Neither of them handle escaping gas as well as the Remington 700 or the Weatherby Mark V, but never mind.)
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 31, 2009
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Zebulon said
Chuck, my understanding of the goal of this project was to take a run of the mine pre-64 Model 70, in this case a 1952 standard rifle 270 caliber with an unknown round count but no obvious anomalies, and see whether the use of modern components and careful load development could improve its accuracy from what was once expected of it, say better than 2 moa. [I’m not sure of your starting assumptions.]After all of your work with this rifle, with your best load on a Standard Day (50F at sea level, windless conditions) what sort of 3 shot group could you prognosticate from its cold, clean barrel?
After all that work I’d guess this rifle would shoot 2 MOA or better. After fouling and a warmed up barrel about 1 MOA. Not that I’m going to do it but I wonder what a brand new barrel would have done?
March 31, 2009
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Zebulon said
For all the howling about the loss of “controlled round feeding” [something nobody gave a fig about while standing in line to buy Remington’s 700 BDL], the post-63 action is stiffer than its predecessor and, when combined with a hammer-forged barrel and a blind magazine, the 670 is physically capable of startling accuracy, without reference to price.
Winchester’s push-feed version of the Model 70 action makes a better target/varmint rifle than its past and current CRF action. The reason is not rocket science. [Neither of them handle escaping gas as well as the Remington 700 or the Weatherby Mark V, but never mind.)
We use a M-16 style extractor in our push feed target rifles. If it will work with full auto it should work one at a time.
January 20, 2023
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Chuck said
Zebulon said
Chuck, my understanding of the goal of this project was to take a run of the mine pre-64 Model 70, in this case a 1952 standard rifle 270 caliber with an unknown round count but no obvious anomalies, and see whether the use of modern components and careful load development could improve its accuracy from what was once expected of it, say better than 2 moa. [I’m not sure of your starting assumptions.]
After all of your work with this rifle, with your best load on a Standard Day (50F at sea level, windless conditions) what sort of 3 shot group could you prognosticate from its cold, clean barrel?
After all that work I’d guess this rifle would shoot 2 MOA or better. After fouling and a warmed up barrel about 1 MOA. Not that I’m going to do it but I wonder what a brand new barrel would have done?
If I ever get the time to find out, I’ve got the rifle for that task – my “hybrid” Model 70. It’s built on a 1948 Model 70 action with cloverleaf tang and Type 2 safety, rebarreled with a 26″ varmint weight SAKO barrel chambered to 22-250, bedded in a circa 1954 Super Grade Monte Carlo style stock.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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