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69A
October 10, 2017
1:47 am
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     Are 69A's very collectable?  I ran into 2 today for 399.00 a piece.  One has a receiver peep sight.  Is that stock?  Also there is a M72 there also.  Are they very collectable?  Been reading up about them but nothing really jumps out and says they are collectable.  Thanks for the info.

October 10, 2017
2:02 am
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Winchester nut said
     Are 69A's very collectable?  I ran into 2 today for 399.00 a piece.  One has a receiver peep sight.  Is that stock?  Also there is a M72 there also.  Are they very collectable?  Been reading up about them but nothing really jumps out and says they are collectable.  Thanks for the info.  

The rear sight on the  M69-A is either a M80-A or a Lyman 57E. If the one with the 80-A has a ramp front sight, it is a common variety. If the one with the M57E has a M93-A Shark fin front sight and swivels it may be the scarce M69-A Match Rifle. It would be in 22 LR only, and have the straight handle bolt. These rifles are getting to be highly collectible as the years go by. Especially those in 95%+ condition with proper magazines. The M72 or M72-A is also highly prized by shooters and collectors alike. Both are very accurate and certain ones, highly collectible.

$399 is about average for a standard 98% M69-A unless it is the grooved variety. Then the price goes up. The M72's seem to bring a little more, nearer $500 in near to mint condition. Also a bit more for the grooved receiver type. There were more M72's made than M72-A's. Another factor. Big Larry

October 10, 2017
4:25 am
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Big Larry said

The rear sight on the  M69-A is either a M80-A or a Lyman 57E. If the one with the 80-A has a ramp front sight, it is a common variety. If the one with the M57E has a M93-A Shark fin front sight and swivels it may be the scarce M69-A Match Rifle. It would be in 22 LR only, and have the straight handle bolt. These rifles are getting to be highly collectible as the years go by. Especially those in 95%+ condition with proper magazines. The M72 or M72-A is also highly prized by shooters and collectors alike. Both are very accurate and certain ones, highly collectible.

$399 is about average for a standard 98% M69-A unless it is the grooved variety. Then the price goes up. The M72's seem to bring a little more, nearer $500 in near to mint condition. Also a bit more for the grooved receiver type. There were more M72's made than M72-A's. Another factor. Big Larry  

 

Yes, exactly what Larry said.

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October 10, 2017
7:53 pm
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Anyone care to guess where I get my info from? JWA knows more about these rifles than anyone and I am very proud to call him my friend. Take that Jeff!!!

Big Larry

October 11, 2017
7:29 am
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     Thanks for the information Mr. Big Larry.  I'm going back tomorrow to check these rifles out some more.  One of the rifles has a shorter and more blunted, at the forearm, stock.  That rifle has a sling and both 69's have straight bolts.  I don't know much about sights, still learning.  Wish there was a good book on sights.  I have the book, Old Gunsights by Nick Stroebel but its hard to follow.  The M72 is real clean and not beat up at all and they want 250.00 for it.  Not sure if its a 72 or a 72A.  Thanks for the info. yall.       

October 11, 2017
3:57 pm
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Blunt stock equals pre war. You may have stumbled onto some good deals.A  nice M72 or M72-A is a steal at $250. A pre war will have a straight bolt. Both M69-A and M72. The key to the Match Rifle is it will be 22 LR only. No provision for a rear sight and factory swivels. Shark fin front sight of course. Check them out. We can help you.   Big Larry

 

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October 11, 2017
4:25 pm
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     Ok I'm glad for the reply.  I'm going to check them out.  I was wondering what differentiated a regular 69A from a match or target 69A.  Were the 69's made in target or match or was it just the 69A's only made in target or match.  What is the difference between the target and match rifles?      

October 11, 2017
4:34 pm
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  Did they make match or target 69A's in grooved receivers?  In my reading it seems that the grooved receivers came along later in production.  Which 72's are highly collectable?        

October 11, 2017
11:45 pm
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     I cant get back to the gun shop today but will in the morning.  I need all the info on these rifles I can get before hand.  What is the difference between the target and match rifles?  Does the target or match 69A rifle have to have a peep sight?  If both 69A's have ramp front sights then I assume they are not rare and not match or target rifles.  What makes M72's collectable and rare?  I did take two pics of the guns in the rack so they don't show much but maybe yall can tell some stuff about the guns.  I waiting for the pics to go to my email then Ill post them.  By the way I know there is lots of questions but I don't know much about these rifles.           

October 12, 2017
1:35 am
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Your best bet is a 5 minute schooling from Mr. 22, JWA. The most basic way to tell a match M69-A is that it will be in 22 LR only. I am not sure but I do not think they ever came with a grooved receiver. The Match and Target M69-A's both have receiver sights albeit different types. The Match has the 93-A front sight as I have mentioned before.

M72's are not rare. They made a bunch of them. The M72-A is better refined and may or may not have a grooved receiver or chrome parts. I guess a rare one would be the Sporter Model. I have seen just one and really did not know if it was original.

In any event, a M69-A M72, or M72-A is worth more than you mentioned.

There are no M69 target rifles that I am aware of. Just some with the 80A rear sight and ramp front. They are not true Target Rifles or Match Rifles. Big Larry

October 12, 2017
2:54 am
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  Thank you Mr. Big Larry, that helped clear things up.

October 12, 2017
7:36 pm
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     Made it back to the gun shop.  One of the 69A's was for .22 short L and LR and had regular rifle sights.  I may buy this one also cause of what Mr. Big Larry said about the price.  This rifle is 90%+ and they want 399.00. 

The other had no rear sight, on the barrel, and the caliber is for LR only.  The rear peep sight is the M80A and the front sight is the M93A shark fin.  The bolt is straight, there are no swivels or holes where swivels use to be and the receiver is not grooved.  This rifle is 95-98%.  Both have bright beautiful bores.  I bought the rifle even though there were no swivels cause everything else matched for it to be a match or target rifle.  I paid 279.00.  I hope I did well.  Ill try to get some pics up of it.  What is the rifle worth? 

     The M72 has a straight bolt, ungrooved receiver and for S, L and LR.  The sights are regular rifle sights.  The gun is 90%+ condition, has a bright beautiful bore and sounds like from what yall say is a typical M72.  They want 250.00 for it.  I did not buy this rifle yet, wanted to hear from yall first.  But from what Mr. Big Larry said it looks like a good deal.

  

October 12, 2017
8:00 pm
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Here are some pics of the 69A I bought today.M69A.JPGImage EnlargerM69A2.JPGImage EnlargerM69A3.JPGImage EnlargerM69A4.JPGImage EnlargerM69A5.JPGImage EnlargerM69A6.JPGImage Enlarger

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October 12, 2017
10:26 pm
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Winchester nut said
Here are some pics of the 69A I bought today.M69A.JPGImage EnlargerM69A2.JPGImage EnlargerM69A3.JPGImage EnlargerM69A4.JPGImage EnlargerM69A5.JPGImage EnlargerM69A6.JPGImage Enlarger  

I think you had better keep looking over your shoulder for the Gun Police. You stole that one, and have the chance to steal a couple more.

I had better wait until JWA gives you an assessment of this rifle. Looks to be something I am not quite sure of.

Go back and buy the others. The $399 for a M69-A is a pretty good deal, if it is real nice. I recently bought a M69-A with grooved receiver, in 99% condition for $355, shipped.   Big Larry 

October 13, 2017
1:21 am
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     Well Sir that is a good problem to have.  I'm curious what yall think this gun is worth.  So I guess you cant really go by the Blue Book values by Fjestad.  I have the 36th edition which is from 2015.  Yes 'sir the other 69 is as nice as this one that I bought today.  The M72, like I said earlier, is about a 90% gun.  I really looked at these guns and they are better built than the comparable guns made today.  I am looking forward to hear what JWA has to say about this gun.  Thanks for all the info on these guns.  I would have never bought this gun or any of the other ones cause I just did not know about them.

October 15, 2017
3:11 pm
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Hi Winchester Nut,

As you surmised, your rifle is a Winchester catalog model G6940R 69A Target.  It should have originally had sling swivels and a factory leather sling.  I have never seen one without the swivels.  It is possible the stock has been swapped with a 69A G6901R since the stocks are nearly identical, the main difference being the lack of sling swivels on the much more common 69A G6901R.  That is just a guess but it can be verified by measuring the pitch of the stock.  The 69A Target stock has a slightly different pitch/drop than the G6901R.

Based upon the components, your specific rifle was made between late 1946 and early 1952.   If you let me know if it has a grooved or serrated trigger and if it has a 4 or 6 groove barrel I can narrow that date range of manufacture for you.

I am hesitant to give you a value since the rifle appears like it may have been reblued based upon the bluing color and "softened" edges on the receiver.  By the time your rifle was manufactured Winchester had long been using the Dulite process which produced a darker (almost black) finish on the 69A.  Typically the barrel and receiver color is the same as the 80A rear sight which was also Dulite blued.  I may be mistaken as my eyesight is not perfect and sometimes the photo lighting plays tricks.  Some close-up pictures of the receiver top, proof mark and breech opening edges would help.

For future reference in your gun shopping, the 69A Match and 69A Target are nearly identical, the primary difference is the Match rifle has a Lyman 57E/57EW rear sight while the Target rifle has a Winchester 80A rear sight.  The 69A Target is easily confused with the MUCH more common G6901R sporting rifle rifle which is the standard model 69A with the 80A rear sight.  The main difference in the G6901R is the lack of sling swivels, different front sight and chambering in S, L and LR.  None of the 69A Match or 69A Target rifles were grooved on the receiver for a scope since both models were discontinued well before the receivers commenced to be grooved.  However, the later model G6903R "Junior Target Shooter's Special" rifle was grooved and came with a 93B (shark fin) front sight and Lyman 57EW so it is sometimes confused with the 69A Match rifle.

Let me know if you have any other specific questions.  Since I have been having problems getting on the forum lately you can always email me directly and I will respond.

Best Regards,

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October 15, 2017
11:43 pm
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   Thank you for your response.  The 69A's trigger is not serrated or grooved, the trigger is smooth.  I'm not sure what you mean by a grooved barrel.  If you explain what it is I can let you know.  I'm thinking that the rifle is reblued also now that you mention it.  The color is lighter on the rifle compaired to the rear sight.  Could you give me an estimated value if the gun is not reblued, just for future reference, and a value if it is reblued.  I paid 379.00 for the rifle.  You wont hurt my feelings, I just want to know.  Also do they make the M72 in target and match?  If so is it configured like the target and match rifles you described already?  Thank you for your time and sharing your knowledge.             

October 16, 2017
12:30 am
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Winchester nut said
   Thank you for your response.  The 69A's trigger is not serrated or grooved, the trigger is smooth.  I'm not sure what you mean by a grooved barrel.  If you explain what it is I can let you know.  I'm thinking that the rifle is reblued also now that you mention it.  The color is lighter on the rifle compaired to the rear sight.  Could you give me an estimated value if the gun is not reblued, just for future reference, and a value if it is reblued.  I paid 379.00 for the rifle.  You wont hurt my feelings, I just want to know.  Also do they make the M72 in target and match?  If so is it configured like the target and match rifles you described already?  Thank you for your time and sharing your knowledge.               

Hi Winchester Nut,

The groove/serrations were added to the 69A trigger in mid-1949 so that narrows your rifle to being produced between late 1946 and mid-1949.  The "grooves" in the barrel refer to the lands and grooves in the rifling.  The earlier Match and Target barrels had 6 land/groove rifling and the later rifles have 4 land/groove rifling.  Look down the bore with a light and count the number of lands or grooves.  The change from 6 to 4 commenced in April of 1948 so if you have a 6 land/groove barrel it places your date of manufacture between late 1946 and mid 1948.  If you have the later 4 land/groove barrel it would put your date of manufacture between April 1948 and mid 1949.  Hope that makes sense.

If the rifle is not re-blued (remember, it is not certain without additional inspection or photos) and had the correct sling swivels, sling (and stock) it would be valued between $500-$550 since the post war 69A Target rifles are more scarce than the post war 69A Match rifles.  The pre-war Match and Targets bring a bit more.

I am not sure of value if it has been re-blued since it would fall into the "shooter" category.  It would be worth at least $250 simply for the parts (stock and bolt).  Again, I am not certain it has been re-blued, please post some close-up pictures of the receiver and lettering on the barrel and I can be more certain one way or the other.

Regarding the Model 72; No, they did not make a Target or Match model of the Model 72 or 72A.  To recap the Model 72 there were 9 different catalog numbers for the 72 (with multiple variations within each catalog number).

G7201R - With 80A rear peep sight (like the Model 69A)
G7202R - With 32B open rear sight (like the Model 69A)
G7221R - "Gallery Special" in .22 Short only (Very Rare)
G7250R - With 5x scope and NO other sights (Very, Very Rare)
G7251R - Dual sight model with 80A rear sight and 5x scope (Rare)
G7252R - Dual sight model with 80A rear sight and 2 3/4x scope (Rare)
G7253R - Dual sight model with 32B rear sight and 5x scope (Rare)
G7254R - Dual sight model with 32B rear sight and 2 3/4x scope (Rare)
G7260R - With 2 3/4x scope and NO other sights (Very, Very Rare)

Hope that clarifies the Model 72 for you.

Best Regards,

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October 16, 2017
12:49 am
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Winchester nut said
   Thank you for your response.  The 69A's trigger is not serrated or grooved, the trigger is smooth.  I'm not sure what you mean by a grooved barrel.  If you explain what it is I can let you know.  I'm thinking that the rifle is reblued also now that you mention it.  The color is lighter on the rifle compaired to the rear sight.  Could you give me an estimated value if the gun is not reblued, just for future reference, and a value if it is reblued.  I paid 379.00 for the rifle.  You wont hurt my feelings, I just want to know.  Also do they make the M72 in target and match?  If so is it configured like the target and match rifles you described already?  Thank you for your time and sharing your knowledge.               

Seems to be some problems with the rifle as JWA has stated. In any event, you did well. The rifle as a Match type has lost much of its collectors value. A nice 98% Match rifle usually will bring nearer to $800 with its original sling.

No Match or Target M72's that I am aware of, but the one with the 80-A and 97-A ramp front with hood, comes close.

The bbls. are not grooved, the very late 1954 vintage rifles have a grooved receiver for a Tip Off Scope so you do not have to drill and tap it.Several Winchester late 22's have this feature. The M61, M63, M69-A, M72-A, M74, M75, M77, and all your M94-22's. Also, one M47 was reported as having a grooved receiver.

The grooved bbl. is in reference to the lands and grooves AKA Bore. Standard M69-M72's have 4 grooves while the true Match and Target models have 6 grooves and a supposedly tighter chamber as does the M75 Target rifles.

You did well on your purchases.     Big Larry

October 16, 2017
1:37 am
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     Thank yall for educating me on these rifles.  I mainly collect the M94 and slide action 22's.  I'm getting into the .22 bolt actions and have lots to learn.  I looked at my rifle and it has 6 land and grooves.  I kinda thought that's what JWA was talking about but was not sure.  I still have lots to learn about collecting and the lingo.  I'm trying to get pictures up on the site so yall can see them.  I ran into a 1904 today at a show.  The stock was in bad shape but the rest of the rifle, blueing, looked decent.  He wanted 350.00 but I did not buy it.  I just don't know if there collectable or not.  I never hear that rifle talked about.  Thanks for the info. everyone.       

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