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Dave called me this morning. He is out of state so he doesn’t have access to the data. When he gets home he will find one of the books where the data is published. He did say that Milbank primed 44 WCF cases were found. He agrees that all of the 44 caliber ammo, rim fire and center fire, was fired by the Indians. They did find a 1st Model 1873 Win carbine. He also said that they figured that 30% of the Indian guns were Winchesters. He will be in Cody.
Chuck said
Dave called me this morning. He is out of state so he doesn’t have access to the data. When he gets home he will find one of the books where the data is published. He did say that Milbank primed 44 WCF cases were found. He agrees that all of the 44 caliber ammo, rim fire and center fire, was fired by the Indians. They did find a 1st Model 1873 Win carbine. He also said that they figured that 30% of the Indian guns were Winchesters. He will be in Cody.
I have several of the archeology books, will be nice to cross reference them with his data. Will give me an excuse to dig them back out again.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/w-c-f-history/little-bighorn
Oh, today didn’t go so good, but I got to sit on a porch with a 73′ in my lap, while most others were out working 😉
Chuck said
Dave called me this morning. He is out of state so he doesn’t have access to the data. When he gets home he will find one of the books where the data is published. He did say that Milbank primed 44 WCF cases were found. He agrees that all of the 44 caliber ammo, rim fire and center fire, was fired by the Indians. They did find a 1st Model 1873 Win carbine. He also said that they figured that 30% of the Indian guns were Winchesters. He will be in Cody.
Chuck,
Thanks for pursuing this and chasing Dave down.
With all of the great research that Bryan has been doing, helping us along on this journey, I’m sure that whatever Dave can provide, will help to add more information, or even eliminate some of the questions we have.
Anthony
Any of you going to Cody I can introduce you to Dave Thorn. He is a great guy and I think still the editor of the Sharps Collector Magazine. From the brief conversation I had with Dave I don’t believe that he has the documentation but he does know where it can be obtained.
I sure wish I could. I’d like to visit all of the western sites like Cody, Bighorn, Tuscon Studioes…and many more.
November 7, 2015
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Bryan Austin said
I sure wish I could. I’d like to visit all of the western sites like Cody, Bighorn, Tuscon Studioes…and many more.
Haven’t spent much time in Tuscon but Cody and Greasy Grass are worth the trip. There is a small museum at the Little Bighorn battle site but walking the field is crucial to understanding the events of those days in July, 1876. There are a few shell casings in the museum but I don’t remember enough about them. I only recall rifle/carbine casings for the Springfields and maybe casings for the Colt revolvers.
Mike
I have contacted all sources given to me (by each source passing the buck) on where the 44-40 cartridge cases are being stored that were recovered at the Little Bighorn. But yet, no one seems to have them.
The Indians shot them so maybe they stored them? But when and how did they get them? Probably not a legal way.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
The Indians shot them so maybe they stored them? But when and how did they get them? Probably not a legal way.
I’d bet the other way on this theory. When a warrior ran out of ammunition for a weapon he often discarded the weapon. He obtained replacement weapons from fallen enemies. It’s interesting that Sioux reservation police were sometimes armed with revolvers picked up on the battlefield of the Little Bighorn and other battlefields. The wandering lifestyle doesn’t support storing things like cartridge cases, that may have changed with the move to reservations.
I’m hopeful these cases are still safely stored somewhere, maybe we’ll be able to sort it out in Cody next month.
Mike
Here are the details of the 44-40 artifacts found at the Battle Of The Rosebud and Little Bighorn
https://www.44-40.org/w-c-f-history
Take note of the artifact item numbers and ask questions…see if we can locate these items storage location. Would be nice to actually find out if one of them is a Milbanked primed cartridge. I have my doubts since the cartridge case in question is in the book, and does not actually appear to be one.
Not to get too far off track here, or even derail this great informational thread.
I was able to acquire a few cartridges recently from Ward’s, to add to my .44 caliber collection. Here’s the link to the Auction.
https://www.wardscollectibles.com/auction/A100/viewitem.php?item=50385
I found these 3 cartridges interesting as the Ward’s Auction, as item number #50385 indicated, Tom Gould, was an inside contractor for Colt, (1872-1873), around the same time Winchester was developing his model 1873 rifle, as we’re all familiar with, and in conjunction with the .44 WCF, cartridge development, and the much talked about, failed Milbank primer cartridge, and the need for a formidable .44 center fire cartridge, Colt’s Tom Gould developed this, “Large Iron Anvil Primer’, cartridge.
These are the First Colt .44 cartridges!
Anthony
In reference to the, “primer wars”, how does this fit in?
I do understand the musket primer, as it’s printed on the tin, patd. date, Sept., 24 Th, 1867.
Naturally, this primer wouldn’t work in the development of the.44 caliber cartridge, Winchester was developing for the 73 Winchester, but I don’t remember reading, or hearing about, where, J. Goldmark’s, might have been contacted to try to come up with a primer, not a percussion cap, for Winchester, as we are all aware of, Oliver Winchester, being a master at the time in contracting other self determined inventors, to come up with something as he’s proven in his many early ventures!
Anthony
I have never read anything about percussion caps being tested to develop primers. But it surely seems feasible. Both the Boxer and the Berdan primers were developed in 1866. I have seen the Berdan primers in some European cartridges. These have multiple flash holes.
Thanks Chuck,
Me neither, that’s why I was asking. It seems to me with all of the trouble with the Milbank Primer, and Winchester, delaying the delivery, of they’re model 73 rifle, in 1873, due to cartridge problems, and the development of the primer, until they found the Gardner to be adequate enough to use in the .44 C.F. caliber. It would seem appropriate to me that O.W. would have contacted, or tried to pursue J. Goldmark, if he was still around.
I did find this past post from this Forum.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/general-discussions-questions/goldmarks-percussion-caps/
Interesting to see that Winchester did buy out Golmark in 1879, from what I understand.
Maverick, has posted some interesting information, in the previous link, I re posted from 2016.
Anthony
Saw this interesting board on another site, that hangs in the Cody Museum! This is a Rim Fire Cartridge Board. Take a look at the cartridge at the bottom! It says for the model 1873! Could this be a Center fire .44 Cartridge? (.44 C.F. Cartridge Board Dummy)
Very interesting to many of us! Be nice to hear more about this while many are in Cody!
I’m wondering What Primer is in this cartridge? If I had to guess, I’d say the Gardner Primer, that Winchester was using early on.
Anthony
That is the 1874 Cartridge board. It is a 44 CF. There is a picture of this in Lou Behling’s Rim Fire books. I will try to find it and see if it says anything about the primer. But my guess is that it is an O. F. Winchester primer? I was told that Lou will be in Cody. If so, I’ll try to talk with him.
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