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Here’s the thing Winchester wasn’t making the Milbank primers by 1876. Not to say that some didn’t get used in the battle. I can call Dave. I’ll see what he has to say. He wasn’t in Greeley but will be at Cody.
Chuck said
Here’s the thing Winchester wasn’t making the Milbank primers by 1876. Not to say that some didn’t get used in the battle. I can call Dave. I’ll see what he has to say. He wasn’t in Greeley but will be at Cody.
Winchester stopped using the Milbank primers for the 44 W.C.F. by very early 74′. The rifles were delayed in shipping for this exact reason. I see no reason why they would be so bent on the delay for the 44 cal. rifles, but yet still sell other cartridges using the Milbank primers, to include the 45 Colt cartridges.
It would be nice for some official confirmations for the other cartridges seen in the 1875 catalog. However, in the 1875 catalog, Winchester notes that all center-fire cartridges were using the “new and improved primer” patented by Winchester July 14th, 1874. This should easily rule out 1876 by a long shot.
Maybe Mr. Dave can help!
You Gentlemen bring up some very good points, and from a few different angles, as far as perspective views. IMO! Respectfully, I am in agreement with many of you’re factual based comments, as I have learned a lot more here, and will continue to pursue more facts on this subject, even though, it might seem limited.
Bryan said
Winchester stopped using the Milbank primers for the 44 W.C.F. by very early 74′. The rifles were delayed in shipping for this exact reason. I see no reason why they would be so bent on the delay for the 44 cal. rifles, but yet still sell other cartridges using the Milbank primers, to include the 45 Colt cartridges
Bryan,
I too, find this very intriguing. In my mind, during these, “Primer Wars”, I want to think, there we’re many vying for the business establishment dollar, and the mere fact of being the one who maybe invented the best newer primer, and possibly kept the Milbank primer, in a few measly other cartridges, until proven detrimental, as Winchester did, in the delay of the model 1873 rifle.
Anthony
Since the Milbank primers were not a Winchester primer they may have been used in the 45-70 trapdoors at the battle?
That I really can not say since I am not real familiar with the availability.
From at least February 1873 (advertised in the catalog) until February 1874 (when the Winchester primers were probably widely available…and although not patented until July of 74)… I guess it would depend on how fast Winchester was able to switch from Milbank primed cases to Winchester primed cases for all of their manufactured center fire cartridges.
Other civilian manufactures were dealing with the same issues, thus the already aforementioned primers they had patented and used…U.M.C. etc.
Somewhere out there is probably a hard core 45-70 collector that could tell us.
Bryan Austin said
That I really can not say since I am not real familiar with the availability.From at least February 1873 (advertised in the catalog) until February 1874 (when the Winchester primers were probably widely available…and although not patented until July of 74)… I guess it would depend on how fast Winchester was able to switch from Milbank primed cases to Winchester primed cases for all of their manufactured center fire cartridges.
Other civilian manufactures were dealing with the same issues, thus the already aforementioned primers they had patented and used…U.M.C. etc.
Somewhere out there is probably a hard core 45-70 collector that could tell us.
Got to thinking about this. Frankford Arsenal would have supplied the ammo for the Military during this period and the 45-70 ammo would have been Benet primed.
Correct, my line of thought was for the acquisition of ammunition through the civilians, acquired by the Indians…maybe for rifles they already had. Highly unlikely, but not entirely impossible. So much that I don’t think any were found on the battlefields that I know of….nor the 44-40. Although one was said to have ben found…and photographed…the case neck looks too long.
The first two photos are comparisons of the 44-40 battlefield recover case. I do not think it is a Milbank primed case. The second photo is of the x-rayed cartridges…
The Military never used 44 WCF. The 45 Colts, the S&W Americans and later the S&W Schofields would have been Benet primed too. But it is possible that a scout could have used a 44 WCF. The Indians surely did.
Chuck said
The Military never used 44 WCF. The 45 Colts, the S&W Americans and later the S&W Schofields would have been Benet primed too. But it is possible that a scout could have used a 44 WCF. The Indians surely did.
That is correct…the Indians is what I refer to.
I have some screen shots to share of what I have overlayed onto the Battle of the Little Bighorn battlefield. I put a ton of hours into this project. The following is a map of the 44-40 artifacts uncovered. Namely only cartridge cases. 44 caliber bullets are so numerous and many may be mislabeled as Henry bullets…or maybe none found at all.
I can described the details if you wish…before moving on to other screenshots
Here is Custer Battlefield 44 caliber artifacts. 44 Henry cases and bullets. Cases are blue triangles and 44 caliber Henry bullets are blue circles.
44-40 cases are red squares, very few are seen.
The red lines are the worrier advance, blue lines are Custer’s advance and retreat.
Here is the Reno Defense area 44 caliber items discovered.
Again, the blue circles are 44 caliber (Henry) cases. The blue squares are 44 caliber bullets. The red squares are 44-40 cases.
Also note the ranges used, 760 yards, 300 yards, 245 yards, 745 yards, 100 yards, 70 yards, 171 yards, 211 yards, 30 to 118 yards
I called Dave Thorn but I had to leave a message. Hopefully he will call me back.
tim tomlinson said
Chuck, its way better than relying on me to remember! Tim
Tim, most of us are in the same boat when it comes to memory. I know I had one once or at least I think I did?
I guess I need to call Dave again. He’s not a big phone person.
November 7, 2015
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tim tomlinson said
Chuck, its way better than relying on me to remember! Tim
I’m beginning to understand what you’re talking about…..by the way, what WERE we talking about?
Mike
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