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I read in the Spring 2020 the article by Bert Hartman and Brad Dunbar on buying old Winchesters. Great and most educational article-Thanks. Two of Brad’s photos show what are called “forging marks” or “striations” on two old guns. My question is: What causes these?
Cheers
Kirk
Kirk,
The receivers are hammer forged into a close shape of the receiver while the metal is red hot. The metal gets folded onto itself and has some impurities or scale in the folds so the metal does not weld itself together perfectly. The fold line then can get moisture in it causing the finish to come off the fold line and over enough time and poor care the metal will rust away leaving a grove in the metal. This why its good to oil your gun once in awhile to get it in the metal.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Kirk,The receivers are hammer forged into a close shape of the receiver while the metal is red hot. The metal gets folded onto itself and has some impurities or scale in the folds so the metal does not weld itself together perfectly.
The basic forging procedure used by Marlin & other makers probably wasn’t much different, yet these lines aren’t common on other guns I’m familiar with except Winchester. What might account for this difference? Differences in the steel alloy? Forging temp.? Steps in the forging process, that is, the number of forging dies used to bring the part to its final shape?
Forging marks are not always detrimental. A tell take sign that a vintage Winchester is UNLIKELY to have been refinished.
January 26, 2011
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mrcvs said
Forging marks are not always detrimental. A tell take sign that a vintage Winchester is UNLIKELY to have been refinished.
Agreed, I like to see them.
~Gary~
Actually I have seen forging lines in refinished guns.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Forging lines are defects, some can be slight surface scratch that can be sanded away, others bone deep. So while some can be polished away, those that are serious will be there no matter how much you polish.
I saw a receiver on GB that had what appeared to be a crack, but it was a serious forging line. Given the seriousness of the line, I’d be surprised if it was not these when it left the factory.
clarence said
1873man said
Kirk,
The receivers are hammer forged into a close shape of the receiver while the metal is red hot. The metal gets folded onto itself and has some impurities or scale in the folds so the metal does not weld itself together perfectly.The basic forging procedure used by Marlin & other makers probably wasn’t much different, yet these lines aren’t common on other guns I’m familiar with except Winchester. What might account for this difference? Differences in the steel alloy? Forging temp.? Steps in the forging process, that is, the number of forging dies used to bring the part to its final shape?
Clarence,
Here is the information on what you seek about a Forged Billet of Steel to make a Winchester Rifle Receiver.
We know certain years of Receivers were made with a percentage of Nickel.
THE PROPERTIES OF FORGED STEEL
Forged steel differentiates itself from various other treatments like casting. [2] The properties of forged steel are quite unique when compared to cast steel. Let’s check some of the forged alloy steel properties:
SOLIDITY
Steel forgings constitute to amazing strength, greater toughness, and top-notch durability. On contact with other substances, the steel is less likely to shatter.
PERSONA
Steel forgings are anisotropic in nature. The strength is not consistent throughout the steel forging. Instead, the strength is the most in the direction of the resulting grain flow when the fabrication process takes place.
UNIFORMITY
One can maintain the same consistency in all the steel forgings manufactured as the forging process is quite meticulous and measured.
RANGE
There is a limit on the size and the thickness of the steel that can be forged as shaping the metal is quite a tedious job.
The Persona aspect, is what are called Forging Marks or Striations, what ever terminology you want to use, I think it’s best described as Grain Flow of the Steel, like it is stated.
I have only seen the Grain Flow (Forging Marks, Striations) run lengthwise (horizontal) of the Receivers
Here are my references, Interesting reading, everybody should read it for a better understanding of the Forged Steel Process.
"I Would Have Rather Lived Through The Industrial Revaluation"
"Instead of The Space Age"
From
The Twilight Zone
I’ve also found forging marks on Winchester Reloading Tools. The early tools were made of cast iron, but after the 1880 Tool Winchester started using forged steel.
As you can see in the photos is does appear to a grain like flow to the striations in the metal.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Thanks to all. As usual the responses from our members are timely, educational and comprehensive. I now understand a bunch more about the various types of forging and it’s effects on steel. More specifically how it plays into the making and collecting of our old guns.
Cheers
Kirk
I wonder if anyone could post some pictures illustrating what forging lines would look like on a receiver or wherever else they might be. On an unrefinished rifle, etc.
Thanks, Jeff
Here is some in front of the side plate
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thank you both, I don’t know how I missed hearing about this for as long as I have been around old guns. One more piece of personal ignorance eliminated.
1873man said
Here is some in front of the side plateBob
WOW!
That is one sweet looking ’73.
Thanks for posting the picture.
Thanks,
Its a 26″ deluxe 22 set trigger but what is odd is it letters with 2 extra barrels fitted fancy checkered forearm complete magazines etc. It has a spirit level in the rear sight slot.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
That’s a beautiful model 1873. You said it letters with two extra barrels? Did you ever check to see how many were done like this one? I’ll bet not many.
Al
Al,
I have researched the 22’s and this is the only one I’m aware of with extra barrels but its not a takedown 22 and would require unthreading the barrel to replace.
Bob
line 97
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
Wonder why the extra barrels were even ordered? I assume you also have the two barrels with it.
Al
Al,
I had the previous owner document the history that he knew and back in 1965 the gun was found in the attic of a long time family Toledo Ohio house by one of two sisters living there. It was just the gun with a Stevens cleaning rod in a old canvas gun bag no extra barrels. They took it to a neighbor to make sure it wasn’t loaded and the neighbor kept it for a while to clean it for them. He wanted to buy it but the sisters didn’t want to sell it since it was owned by their brother who was dead. They didn’t know if he was the original owner. When the neighbor’s wife died the sisters came over to inquire about some Peachblow dishes they knew his wife had and had always wanted. He traded the 3 dishes for the gun ( A great deal in my mind). He then took it around to gun shows trying to find out what it was worth and soon got nervous about keeping the gun in his house and having it stolen or have it get rusted so he sold it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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