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The dire future of Winchester collecting
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May 10, 2024 - 3:18 pm
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Zebulon said

steve004 said

I think a lot of it comes down to money – and access to money.  Most of us are slipping behind.  Between inflation and many here now living on retirement incomes, discretionary funds are not on the upswing.  The demographics are moving.  While many are falling behind, for the last several years I keep hearing that the amount of millionaires and billionaires are steadily increasing.  Simply put, there’s more high rollers than ever.  The number of people who have made big money in the stock market over the past 8 years is a big number.  Bidding against these larger group of people with deep pockets results in most of us being excluded from the highly collectable gun market.  I think of Wes Adams.  He didn’t start out as a gun collector.  He made his money (a lot of it) and then got into gun collecting.  I think he had collected for about ten years before he passed.  And during those ten years he dug into his deep pockets and purchased an amazing amount of top collectible rifles.  

The high roller phenomenon isn’t new and there’s more than one variation. I’m reminded that several years ago I was reading about people (i.e. with deep pockets) with little interest in guns, converting stock market gains into the collectible gun market.  Again, bidding against these people (or their agents) is disheartening.

The result of the above is the market for the top collectables has remained very strong.  However, perhaps a silver lining is the high rollers are not interested in the lower level guns.  We’ve seen examples of dips in values of lower level rifles.  Even more so with non-Winchester brands.  For those pieces that are clean, original and decent, there’s nothing to be ashamed of. Quite the opposite.  I have many rifles in that range and am quite pleased with them.  There’s also those rifles that have just the right character – character that you won’t see on a $50,000 rifle.  A $2,000 M1892 is still the same rifle as a $50,000 M1892.  In fact, you’ll surely have more fun with it.  

  

Steve’s point is well taken.  A benefit of the stratospheric prices of what I’ve called “the most collectible Winchesters” can be keeping the lesser condition guns from being lost to history.

I think we can all agree our association’s goals and aspirations are best served by increasing our membership, which is best accomplished by encouraging all interested in the Winchester brand to participate, share, and learn by joining us, including those having a strong, enthusiastic interest but modest disposable income. 

Because we are fascinated by the most collectible Winchesters, it is all too easy to give the impression to otherwise interested, potential members that they and their constricted budgets are unworthy.  As much as I enjoy the Collector quarterly magazine, it can seem intimidating to the uninitiated.  

While “originality” is the sine qua non of the finest and most collectible  vintage Wincester guns,  closely followed by “condition”, irrefutable facts established by the marketplace, not our bylaws, these  should not be seen as an exclusionary rule that discourages membership. 

  

Bill –

Right back at you.  Your point is well taken as well.  It is a very good point.  New collectors and members are the lifeblood of our hobby.  New members, particularly those just starting out, often aren’t starting out with impressive pieces.  Often they are buying the best they afford but often they don’t have a lot of money to work with.

Something I have appreciated about this site is tone toward new members and guests.  Many show up here with their first purchase and these are often rifles that most established collectors are going to walk past at a gun show without more than a brief glance.  I’ve been pleased to see new members are welcomed and even if their rifle has been altered, usually we try to say something positive.  It can be tricky as new members want to learn, but unexpected bad news is never fun.  I have a lot of experience behind me to state that the learning process can be a painful one.  

Writing this prompts a memory of a flashback of painful learning for me.  I have a Winchester with multiple special order features, decent condition and really a pretty desirable piece.  One day I happened to show it to someone who was better at spotting alterations than me (at least he was back then).  He quickly spotted an alteration I had missed (plenty significant to a collector).  It was a low moment for me.  Simultaneously it added significantly to my knowledge base.  I’ll not make that particular mistake again.  I did reflect that had I never happened to show that particular gun to him, I would have continued on feeling highly pleased with that piece – which was a good feeling and I was sad to lose that feeling for that piece.  However without that knowledge, I was vulnerable to repeating the mistake. 

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May 10, 2024 - 3:47 pm
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JWA said
I have never been able to afford a nice lever action collection, even the plain jane low-end rifles were out of my price range to purchase more than a few so I started collecting pre-64 Winchester .22s about 45 years ago.  When I first started that collection my rule was not to spend more than $100 and not buy a gun in less than 95% condition condition.  The pawn and gun shops were loaded with opportunities in that price range back then and I was able to accumulate a nice representative collection.  To this day you can still purchase a very nice condition original Model 67 made in 1935 with a finger groove walnut stock for about $200 so inflation has not hit that market too hard.  Of course the more rare .22 models and variations have gone up in price simply because everyone is now a bit more educated about them and can spot the differences between a common or unusual variation.  Back then I paid the same price for a 69 Match rifle as a common open sight 69.  No one knew the difference (or cared), they were just 15-20 year old used .22s that someone traded in to purchase a new plastic-stocked space age plinker.

I still can’t afford a lever action collection but on a lower budget have enjoyed a lifetime of Winchester collecting in my own niche.  I think there is still room for all levels of financial status in the Winchester market and there will always be a demand at some level.  

Best Regards,

  

Well said.  The present affordability of niche collecting is an issue that needs to be explored. 

I can still remember going into The Buckhorn in downtown Dallas in the late Sixties and seeing clean, used field grade Model 21s in barrels. I disremember the prices but they were a little more than I could afford but not silly – hundreds not thousands. And a Model.71 converted to 450 Alaskan with a barrel to forestock band and a serious recoil pad. Johnson’s Kenai Rifles.  By the time I could afford them they were gone.  Born too late. 

I note that 95% condition was your minimum, a noble goal. If I were starting out today, what subset of Winchester guns in 95% condition should I choose to collect that could be acquired for say, an average price of $1,000 per gun?  (I should note that, according to Uncle Sam’s CPI, an item that cost $100 USD in 1979 would cost $430 USD in 2024.  Of course, that’s based on a market basket that doesn’t include guns, and so I think $430 is  a little low for the goods in question.) 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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May 10, 2024 - 3:48 pm
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steve004 said I did reflect that had I never happened to show that particular gun to him, I would have continued on feeling highly pleased with that piece – which was a good feeling and I was sad to lose that feeling for that piece.  However without that knowledge, I was vulnerable to repeating the mistake. 
  

Which is why holding your tongue for fear of hurting the “proud owner’s” feelings is not doing him a favor; if your fly is open, most folks will be too polite to tell you, but I’m grateful to the one who does. 

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May 10, 2024 - 4:05 pm
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clarence said

steve004 said I did reflect that had I never happened to show that particular gun to him, I would have continued on feeling highly pleased with that piece – which was a good feeling and I was sad to lose that feeling for that piece.  However without that knowledge, I was vulnerable to repeating the mistake. 

  

Which is why holding your tongue for fear of hurting the “proud owner’s” feelings is not doing him a favor; if your fly is open, most folks will be too polite to tell you, but I’m grateful to the one who does. 

  

Concur but with the proviso the proud unfortunate owner be let down gently.

Not like the marine drill master tasked with telling a recruit his mother had died unexpectedly:

‘Listen up! Those of you whose mothers are still alive, take one step forward. Not so fast there, Smith!!”

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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May 10, 2024 - 4:09 pm
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Folks,  Lots of great points and not likely anything I say or do will change any of them (NOR SHOULD!).  I began collecting in 1973.  Over 50 years ago.  I bought what I could afford at that time, so mostly gray or brown versions.  I now have a pretty nice representation of the main lever actions, numbering about 50 or so.  Most are in fairly good condition with those in lesser condition being rare.  Now is a great time as so many really nice versions are coming out of collections and going to market.  For those with MONEY available to spend!!  Like was said, I am now buying ones beyond my ability to afford them!  It hurts to buy them now, and I am only getting one or two per year at best, but time is running out for me to do so.  I’ve not heard of any death bed confessions of ” I wish I had saved more!”  Its a balancing act.  One year, sooner than expected, my son will have a great collection or some great rifles will go on the market.  They will bring what they are worth at that time.  In the meantime, I will enjoy them when I can’t physically hunt any more etc!  Trying to out think the world is a fool’s errand.  Take life as it is and don’t over think the circumstances.  Tim

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May 10, 2024 - 4:22 pm
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tim tomlinson said
Folks,  Lots of great points and not likely anything I say or do will change any of them (NOR SHOULD!).  I began collecting in 1973.  Over 50 years ago.  I bought what I could afford at that time, so mostly gray or brown versions.  I now have a pretty nice representation of the main lever actions, numbering about 50 or so.  Most are in fairly good condition with those in lesser condition being rare.  Now is a great time as so many really nice versions are coming out of collections and going to market.  For those with MONEY available to spend!!  Like was said, I am now buying ones beyond my ability to afford them!  It hurts to buy them now, and I am only getting one or two per year at best, but time is running out for me to do so.  I’ve not heard of any death bed confessions of ” I wish I had saved more!”  Its a balancing act.  One year, sooner than expected, my son will have a great collection or some great rifles will go on the market.  They will bring what they are worth at that time.  In the meantime, I will enjoy them when I can’t physically hunt any more etc!  Trying to out think the world is a fool’s errand.  Take life as it is and don’t over think the circumstances.  Tim

  

Tim – thanks for weighing in.  Good perspective.  

Speaking of perspective, at least an interesting one, someone (not a young man and not someone without health issues) mentioned to me that perhaps all these years, he has simply been collecting for whoever his wife’s future husband turns out to be Yell

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Zebulon said

I note that 95% condition was your minimum, a noble goal. If I were starting out today, what subset of Winchester guns in 95% condition should I choose to collect that could be acquired for say, an average price of $1,000 per gun?   

That is an excellent question!  I set the bar at 95% because there were many to choose from and they were not that difficult to find as they were not really desired by the deep-pocket Winchester collector’s.  The same scenario exists today with post-64 rifles.  Mainstream “Winchester” collectors look down their noses at post-64 models so they are currently not in high demand and consequently, lower cost.  And while the days of $100 rifles are past I can certainly envision new and future Winchester collectors to start accumulating those low-cost rifles, in fact, I think it is already starting.  

An example would be the post-64 Winchester .22s, although I do not have much personal interest in them I do pay a little attention simply for research purposes and have found there is a huge variety of models, sub-models and variations available, many in the 95% condition range and some even still new in the box.  And guess what, most are now older than 50 years which makes them C&R eligible Winchesters and welcome at our annual WACA shows.  Some rifles such as the bolt action 320 and semi-auto 490 are VERY nice rifles indeed.  Here is a basic post-64 .22 model list and starting point for a collector – 

Winchester Post-1963 Rim Fire Rifles (excluding Model 52)

MODEL SUB-MODEL CALIBER DATE(S) TYPE NOTES
 
121
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

 
1967-1973
Bolt Action, Single Shot 121 total production 72,561
Scope not furnished
 
121-Y
 
Youth
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

 
1967-1973
Bolt Action, Single Shot 121 total production 72,561
 
121-D
 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

 
1967-1973
Bolt Action, Single Shot 121 total production 72,561
 
131
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1967-71 Bolt Action, Box Magazine 121 repeating model
 
135
 
Standard
 
.22 WMR
1967-?? Bolt Action, Box Magazine 121 repeating model
 
141
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1967-72 Bolt Action, Tubular Magazine 121 repeating model
Catalog # 14101
 
145
 
Standard
 
.22 WMR
1967-?? Pump Action, Tubular Magazine 121 repeating model
Catalog # 14501
 
150
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1967-1973 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
150
 
Carbine
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1968?-1974 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
With barrel band and sling swivels
 
 
190

 

 
Standard
.22 Long &
Long Rifle
1966-1977 Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
Originally specified for S, L & LR then changed to L&LR only
 
190

 

 
Carbine
.22 Long &
Long Rifle
1968?-1972 Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
With barrel band and sling swivels
 
 
190

 

w/ 4X Weaver Scope .22 Long &
Long Rifle
1973-78/80 Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
Came with weaver 4x scope, “Marksman” scope specified in 1978
 
250

 

 
Standard

# 25001

.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1963-1974 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
250-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-1972
(May ’65)
Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering, sling swivels, gold trigger
 
255

 

 
Standard
 
.22 WMR
1964-70 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
255-D

 

 
Deluxe
 
.22 WMR
1965-70
(May ’65)
Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering, white spacer, sling swivels
 
270

 

 
Standard

#27003

.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1963-1974 Pump Action, Tubular Magazine  
 
270-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-1972…
(May ’65)
Pump Action, Tubular Magazine High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering
 
275

 

 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1964-70 Pump Action, Tubular Magazine  
 
275-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-70/72
(May ’65)
Pump Action, Tubular Magazine High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering
 
290

 

 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1963-1977… Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
Added checkering and white spacer in early ‘70’s? (Likely 1973 when Deluxe dropped)
 
290-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-72/75
(May ’65)
  High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering, white spacer, sling swivels
 
290

 

w/ D4 4X Weaver Scope .22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1977-   Catalog #G29003S
310  
#31001
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1971-1975 Bolt Action, Single Shot  
320  
#32001
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1971-1974 Bolt Action, Box Magazine  
325    
.22 WMR
1971-??
(Fall ‘71)

Not in 1974

Bolt Action, Box Magazine Possibly never made?
490   .22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1974-1977 Semi-auto, Box Magazine  
 
9422

 

 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1972-1977 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
“F” Prefix serial number
 
9422M

 

 
Magnum
 
.22 WMR
1972-1977 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
9422 XTR
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1977-1981 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High polish bluing and high gloss finish, checkered stocks introduced in 1980
 
9422M XTR
 
Magnum
 
.22 WMR
1977-1981 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High polish bluing and high gloss finish, checkered stocks introduced in 1980
 
9422

 

Standard
#15016
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –
 
9422M

 

Magnum
#15065
 
.22 WMR
1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –
9422 WinTuff
 
Standard
#15241
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA – Brown, laminate stock
9422M WinTuff Magnum
#15263
 
.22 WMR
1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA – Brown, laminate stock
9422 WinCam Standard
#?????
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
Only offered in .22 WMR?
USRAA – Green, laminate stock
9422M WinCam Magnum
#15313
 
.22 WMR
1981?-2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA – Green, laminate stock
 
9417

 

 
Traditional
 
.17 HMR
2003-2004? Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –
 
9417

 

 
Legacy
 
.17 HMR
2003-2004? Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –

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May 10, 2024 - 4:52 pm
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JWA said

Zebulon said

I note that 95% condition was your minimum, a noble goal. If I were starting out today, what subset of Winchester guns in 95% condition should I choose to collect that could be acquired for say, an average price of $1,000 per gun?   

That is an excellent question!  I set the bar at 95% because there were many to choose from and they were not that difficult to find as they were not really desired by the deep-pocket Winchester collector’s.  The same scenario exists today with post-64 rifles.  Mainstream “Winchester” collectors look down their noses at post-64 models so they are currently not in high demand and consequently, lower cost.  And while the days of $100 rifles are past I can certainly envision new and future Winchester collectors to start accumulating those low-cost rifles, in fact, I think it is already starting.  

An example would be the post-64 Winchester .22s, although I do not have much personal interest in them I do pay a little attention simply for research purposes and have found there is a huge variety of models, sub-models and variations available, many in the 95% condition range and some even still new in the box.  And guess what, most are now older than 50 years which makes them C&R eligible Winchesters and welcome at our annual WACA shows.  Some rifles such as the bolt action 320 and semi-auto 490 are VERY nice rifles indeed.  Here is a basic post-64 .22 model list and starting point for a collector – 

Winchester Post-1963 Rim Fire Rifles (excluding Model 52)

MODEL SUB-MODEL CALIBER DATE(S) TYPE NOTES
 
121
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

 
1967-1973
Bolt Action, Single Shot 121 total production 72,561
Scope not furnished
 
121-Y
 
Youth
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

 
1967-1973
Bolt Action, Single Shot 121 total production 72,561
 
121-D
 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

 
1967-1973
Bolt Action, Single Shot 121 total production 72,561
 
131
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1967-71 Bolt Action, Box Magazine 121 repeating model
 
135
 
Standard
 
.22 WMR
1967-?? Bolt Action, Box Magazine 121 repeating model
 
141
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1967-72 Bolt Action, Tubular Magazine 121 repeating model
Catalog # 14101
 
145
 
Standard
 
.22 WMR
1967-?? Pump Action, Tubular Magazine 121 repeating model
Catalog # 14101
 
150
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1967-1973 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
150
 
Carbine
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1968?-1974 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
With barrel band and sling swivels
 
 
190

 

 
Standard
.22 Long &
Long Rifle
1966-1977 Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
Originally specified for S, L & LR then changed to L&LR only
 
190

 

 
Carbine
.22 Long &
Long Rifle
1968?-1972 Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
With barrel band and sling swivels
 
 
190

 

w/ 4X Weaver Scope .22 Long &
Long Rifle
1973-78/80 Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
Came with weaver 4x scope, “Marksman” scope specified in 1978
 
250

 

 
Standard

# 25001

.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1963-1974 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
250-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-1972
(May ’65)
Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering, sling swivels, gold trigger
 
255

 

 
Standard
 
.22 WMR
1964-70 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
255-D

 

 
Deluxe
 
.22 WMR
1965-70
(May ’65)
Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering, white spacer, sling swivels
 
270

 

 
Standard

#27003

.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1963-1974 Pump Action, Tubular Magazine  
 
270-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-1972…
(May ’65)
Pump Action, Tubular Magazine High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering
 
275

 

 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1964-70 Pump Action, Tubular Magazine  
 
275-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-70/72
(May ’65)
Pump Action, Tubular Magazine High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering
 
290

 

 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1963-1977… Semi-auto,
Tubular Magazine
Added checkering and white spacer in early ‘70’s? (Likely 1973 when Deluxe dropped)
 
290-D

 

 
Deluxe
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1965-72/75
(May ’65)
  High-gloss Monte Carlo walnut stock, basket-weave checkering, white spacer, sling swivels
 
290

 

w/ D4 4X Weaver Scope .22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1977-   Catalog #G29003S
310  
#31001
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1971-1975 Bolt Action, Single Shot  
320  
#32001
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1971-1974 Bolt Action, Box Magazine  
325    
.22 WMR
1971-??
(Fall ‘71)

Not in 1974

Bolt Action, Box Magazine Possibly never made?
490   .22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1974-1977 Semi-auto, Box Magazine  
 
9422

 

 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1972-1977 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
“F” Prefix serial number
 
9422M

 

 
Magnum
 
.22 WMR
1972-1977 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
 
 
9422 XTR
 
Standard
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1977-1981 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High polish bluing and high gloss finish, checkered stocks introduced in 1980
 
9422M XTR
 
Magnum
 
.22 WMR
1977-1981 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
High polish bluing and high gloss finish, checkered stocks introduced in 1980
 
9422

 

Standard
#15016
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –
 
9422M

 

Magnum
#15065
 
.22 WMR
1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –
9422 WinTuff
 
Standard
#15241
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA – Brown, laminate stock
9422M WinTuff Magnum
#15263
 
.22 WMR
1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA – Brown, laminate stock
9422 WinCam Standard
#?????
.22 Short,
Long &

Long Rifle

1981?- 2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
Only offered in .22 WMR?
USRAA – Green, laminate stock
9422M WinCam Magnum
#15313
 
.22 WMR
1981?-2006 Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA – Green, laminate stock
 
9417

 

 
Traditional
 
.17 HMR
2003-2004? Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –
 
9417

 

 
Legacy
 
.17 HMR
2003-2004? Lever action,
Tubular Magazine
USRAA –

  

You’ve just said what I’ve been thinking – a thought stimulated by a recent visit to an old friend of mine who showed me his Winchester 320, which, except for the impressed checkering, is a very sound and handsome rifle, using the same Warne’s SPORTCO action adopted for the Kimber of Oregon Model 82.  It is a righteous Winchester and I’d be proud to own one.  As you say, however, accumulation and rising prices are already occurring in this niche, particularly in the case of the excellent 9422.  The one I bought for my son was made about 1989, after the (to me, meaningless) 1981 line of demarcation, but I’m sure glad I got it when I did.  One of the most dramatic beneficiaries of CNC machining.  As you know, the 9422 employs the same, upside down feeding mechanism as my favorite Model 61 and has a receiver that compares favorably in form and finish to my Model 63 – a very expensive little gun to make by traditional methods. 

This is the kind of thinking that will bring in a lot of new folks.  Except you shouldn’t exclude the Miroku-built Winchester 52 hybrid B/C Sporting.  I owned one and enjoyed it for quite a while before lucking into a 1960 C Sporter at an affordable price – because the seller thought it was a ringer. Sometimes a blind squirrel….

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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May 10, 2024 - 9:00 pm
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Zebulon said Except you shouldn’t exclude the Miroku-built Winchester 52 hybrid B/C Sporting.  I owned one and enjoyed it for quite a while before lucking into a 1960 C Sporter at an affordable price – because the seller thought it was a ringer. Sometimes a blind squirrel….
  

Excellent values as demonstrated when they doubled in price after they’d been out of production a couple of yrs.  I failed to buy one because I thought the brls were too light (which they are, as with the originals), but now I regret my pickiness. 

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May 10, 2024 - 10:11 pm
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Another interesting and provocative topic… For which the WACA Forum is famous!!! Laugh I was musing over something sort of like this the other day…

I started collecting pre-64 M70 Winchesters around 1980-ish (born in 1957, so still pretty “young”).  IIRC, at the time you could readily find (at local gun shows in VA), 95+% M70 standard rifles in less common calibers (stuff like 22 HORNET, 220 SWIFT, 257 ROBERTS) for around $600-650, while one would have to pay the EXORBITANT price of around $1200 for a Super Grade in one of those “medium rare” chamberings.  My collection, such as it is, still contains quite a few guns picked up “back in the day” either by my Dad or myself when those were the outlandish prices…

Fast forward to last week…  I was doing something (merging my survey files) that I do every time I’ve accumulated another 300+ “new” survey entries…  I had last done this in early March…  I was somewhat suprised to see that since the last “merge”, I had run across decent (likely “real”) examples of all (14) cataloged pre-64 M70 styles/substyles.  That includes the SG Featherweight and African, National Match, Bull Gun, etc.  My thought was that I if were starting out TODAY to collect pre-64 M70s, and my goal was to get one in each style/substyle, I could be pretty sure that I could do that inside of 1 year (as long as DOM, period, caliber, etc. were not priorities).  I think it would cost me about $50K (OUCH!!!), but in this “niche” the guns are out there…

The THREAT that I see is IGNORANCE of what’s a good gun and what isn’t.  Well over 90% of the M70s I survey are not “collectable” (although 30-06 “truck guns” are more useful to the survey than “fabulous/uncataloged/rare/NIB” 35 REM Super Grade Carbines!!! Laugh).  My take is that what will discourage a new collector (regardless of age or financial means) is getting BURNED by the myriad FAKES that are out there.  We’ve written about “how to break the bad news”, etc., so it’s on the minds of many.  We wouldn’t have to break the bad news as often if the “consumers” were better informed.  The ones who don’t care won’t come here, and we can’t “fix stupid”, but whatever… 

I am very impressed by how the membership welcomes and “tactfully” deals with new posters (Members or Not).  That’s great!!! Ever look at the “Winchester Collectors Form” on the “24 hour Campfire”?  OUCH!!!  But IMHO, WACA could be even more of a resource/reference than it is…  The knowledge base is HERE… You want to grow the fold and diminish the impact of the (expletive deleted) vultures?  Share what you know…  

Just my take…

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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May 10, 2024 - 11:15 pm
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JWA – that’s a cool chart of the post-64 22’s….I have a 150, 250, and 255, all three like new. I’m onto the slide actions again for now, but I like them all….look forward to your Cody presentation by the way!  JP

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May 10, 2024 - 11:45 pm
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Louis Luttrell said
Another interesting and provocative topic… The likes of which the WACA Forum is famous for!!! Laugh I was musing over something sort of like this the other day…

I started collecting pre-64 M70 Winchesters around 1980-ish (born in 1957, so still pretty “young”).  IIRC, at the time you could readily find (at local gun shows in VA), 95+% M70 standard rifles in less common calibers (stuff like 22 HORNET, 220 SWIFT, 257 ROBERTS) for around $600-650, while one would have to pay the EXORBITANT price of around $1200 for a Super Grade in one of those “medium rare” chamberings.  My collection, such as it is, still contains quite a few guns picked up “back in the day” either by my Dad or myself when those were the outlandish prices…

Fast forward to last week…  I was doing something (merging my survey files) that I do every time I’ve accumulated another 300+ “new” survey entries…  I had last done this in early March…  I was somewhat suprised to see that since the last “merge”, I had run across decent (likely “real”) examples of all (14) cataloged pre-64 M70 styles/substyles.  That includes the SG Featherweight and African, National Match, Bull Gun, etc.  My thought was that I if were starting out TODAY to collect pre-64 M70s, and my goal was to get one in each style/substyle, I could be pretty sure that I could do that inside of 1 year (as long as DOM, period, caliber, etc. were not priorities).  I think it would cost me about $50K (OUCH!!!), but in this “niche” the guns are out there…

The THREAT that I see is IGNORANCE of what’s a good gun and what isn’t.  Well over 90% of the M70s I survey are not “collectable” (although 30-06 “truck guns” are more useful to the survey than “fabulous/uncataloged/rare/NIB” 35 REM Super Grade Carbines!!! Laugh).  My take is that what will discourage a new collector (regardless of age or financial means) is getting BURNED by the myriad FAKES that are out there.  We’ve written about “how to break the bad news”, etc., so it’s on the minds of many.  We wouldn’t have to break the bad news as often if the”consumers” were better informed.  The ones who don’t care won’t come here, and we can’t “fix stupid”, but whatever… 

I am very impressed by how the membership welcomes and “tactfully” deals with new posters (Members or Not).  That’s great!!! Ever look at the “Winchester Collectors Form” on the “24 hour Campfire”?  OUCH!!!  But IMHO, WACA could be even more of a resource/reference than it is…  The knowledge base is HERE… You want to grow the fold and diminish the impact of the (expletive deleted) vultures?  Share what you know…  

Just my take…

Lou

  

Well, now that you’ve thrown the [extruded cylinder of feces] onto the table,  I’m not so sanguine about how all new non-member posters are treated. We’ve been discussing post-’63 Winchesters and post-’80 Winchesters on this thread, at least indirectly.  In that regard I have seen more than one owner or aspiring purchaser of such guns receive curt and dismissive responses to inquiries they posted on this forum. I’m too new to raise my voice but I think that what I’ve seen is unfortunate and short-sighted. (No, I’m not going to cite to specific instances.) 

I believe this forum and the WACA membership are the very best free and usually accessible resources I know of to protect Winchester enthusiasts from being swindled, at least to an intermediate level of collecting. 

However, to pick from Lou’s examples, an aspirant who proposes to acquire a high condition Model 70 Super Grade Featherweight (say, in .358 WCF) is entering very treacherous waters. His needs are beyond what the collective wisdom of this forum can provide. Why? The dollars involved are great enough to attract the most masterful fakers, those with the shop skills, experience and depth of knowledge that can overwhelm and defeat a sophisticated collector.  Actually, I believe the preferred targets of the master fakers are auction houses and dealers. Once the arm has been blessed “by our highly credentialed and internationally recognized blah blah,”  what’s not to like? 

Having known (professionally) some truly notorious swindlers that could charm the rattles off an irritated snake, I’m actually relieved I can’t go shopping for a rare and magnificent Winchester. I quit cigaretttes almost 30 years ago — about the hardest thing I ever had to do. I’m afraid I’d start back from the worry. 

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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May 11, 2024 - 12:32 am
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Perhaps it’s time for a POST-64 section of the forum? You may now throw rocks at me…

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Jeremy P said
JWA – that’s a cool chart of the post-64 22’s….I have a 150, 250, and 255, all three like new. I’m onto the slide actions again for now, but I like them all….look forward to your Cody presentation by the way!  JP

  

Hi Jeremy,

That chart is just what I have in my digital notebook to keep things straight in my head.  It is not complete and some of the dates may be incomplete or incorrect.  I gleaned most of the info from sales catalogs.  Please feel free to update/add to it as needed, I just threw it into this thread to Zeb for a quick  example.

I like your idea of a post-63 section, even if it is not well received now, I am sure it will be in the future and it might bring in some additional collectors to both WACA and the Forum.

When I first joined WACA there was not a .22 rim fire sub-category, I had to ask for it several times before it was grudgingly created and it seems fairly popular now……it has the 3rd highest post-count out of ALL of the Winchester categories Laugh

Best Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

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May 11, 2024 - 1:54 am
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JWA,

I liked your chart.

A 9422 you don’t have on that list is the 9422 “Classic” which came in both a 22 S, L, & LR model and a 22 Winchester Magnum model.

The Classic was only made in 1986-87, as I recall, and it had a pistol grip stock and a simplified crescent steel buttplate. I would have to dig into the old USRAC catalogs for more info on that. I also have one in the safe.  But I remember that model especially, as I was living in New Haven when the 9422 Classic was introduced.

All the best–

BRP

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May 11, 2024 - 2:24 am
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Gentlemen-

IMHO no member of this forum (except for the occasional drive-by poster) is stupid. Or dumb. ALL of us, however, are likely ignorant, to some degree, about at least some small segment of the wonderful world of a Winchester collecting. Some (ME!) more than others. There’s no shame in that. That’s why we’re here! 
Quite honestly I love the Model 70, but because of the prolific fakery I have no desire to collect them, much like the SAA Colt. I’ll hunt with Post-64’s and admire the exceptional specimens from afar. 
Where was I going with this? Hmmmm…
We are all but temporary custodians of the guns we love. We hope that when we are gone to the great gun show (or museum) in the hereafter our ungrateful heirs will realize a fair price for the trinkets we’ve managed to accumulate. This will require collectors younger (hopefully much younger) than ourselves. We need to cultivate these young collectors. Spend a little time visiting with them at gun shows and on forums. Educate the aspiring gun nut at your local gun shop or range. Write a book or magazine article. Pass your knowledge along. We are here for a very short time. All the guns I shot today are older than I am. Some were made before my grandparents were born. 
We will determine the future of Winchester collecting.

 

Mike

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May 11, 2024 - 4:04 am
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TXGunNut said
Gentlemen-

We need to cultivate these young collectors. Spend a little time visiting with them at gun shows and on forums. Educate the aspiring gun nut at your local gun shop or range. Write a book or magazine article. Pass your knowledge along. We are here for a very short time. All the guns I shot today are older than I am. Some were made before my grandparents were born. 

We will determine the future of Winchester collecting.

Mike

Hear Hear!!!  Well said Mike!!!  WE will determine the future of Winchester collecting…

I know a few Winchester collectors (members of this Forum, in fact) who are under the age of 40 and I’m more than happy when they ask me about something (as long as it involves pre-64 M70s because I profess total ignorance of any other Winchester topic)… WinkSurprised 

For Zeb-

The SG Featherweight was never cataloged in 358 WIN, and while I’ve seen more than one, I doubt (for various reasons) that any were “real”…  Not so the SG Featherweight in 264 WIN MAGNUM…  If nothing else, M70 S/N 500,000 was a SG Featherweight in that chambering, engraved/inlaid by John Kusmit, and on display in the Cody Museum… Wink  Still… Such guns are where Angels (should) fear to tread (not to mention mere Mortals)…  

For Jeremy P-

As long as it comes to being the target of hurled projectiles… I agree… Winchesters made after 1963 are not “pre-64” and firearms manufactured under the Winchester brand name after 1981 are not “Winchesters”…  Sure… Semantics? Focus on Corporate structure as the be all/end all determinant of what’s important??  There is “collector” interest in (some) of them, the public isn’t as hung up as we are on what is/is not a “Winchester”, etc.  Heck… To some (probably most) here I’m a heretic b/c my interest doesn’t lie in products that were introduced before the turn of the 20th Century… 

A “post-63” topic thread might draw significant traffic, and those who find it noisome can simply skip those posts.  We’d have to find the relevant “experts”, since we’ve tended to run them off, but I do have a nominee for “historian” of post-63 M70s (and it’s NOT me!!!).

Just my take,

Lou

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May 11, 2024 - 5:34 am
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It has been mentioned that the problem with the hobby is the cost of some of these Winchesters now and how that is excluding many individuals who might otherwise have an interest.  Look at the big name firearms auction houses and you will see that a Winchester that sells for $50k or even $100k is by no means uncommon.

On the other hand, what is the most a Winchester rifle has ever sold for?  $1 million was breached awhile ago, but has $2 million or $3 million ever been crossed?  That makes this seem cheap relative to original artwork of quality.  I’m on the enail chain from Christie’s and Sotheby’s, as well as Doyle’s, Bonham’s, and others, simply because I have an interest, but, by no means, the funds to collect, this sort of stuff.  There, it’s not unusual to see mind boggling numbers such as a pre auction estimate of $20,000,000 to $30,000,000, for example.  And, there are folks that can pay these sorts of numbers each and every sale, and more, and a runner up bidder to make sure these numbers get this high.

So, in a relative sense, it makes the antique arms hobby seem cheap.  Also, with what real estate sells for now, a top notch Winchester is only a fraction of the cost of a house.

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May 11, 2024 - 6:19 am
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mrcvs said
It has been mentioned that the problem with the hobby is the cost of some of these Winchesters now and how that is excluding many individuals who might otherwise have an interest.  Look at the big name firearms auction houses and you will see that a Winchester that sells for $50k or even $100k is by no means uncommon.

On the other hand, what is the most a Winchester rifle has ever sold for?  $1 million was breached awhile ago, but has $2 million or $3 million ever been crossed?  That makes this seem cheap relative to original artwork of quality.  I’m on the enail chain from Christie’s and Sotheby’s, as well as Doyle’s, Bonham’s, and others, simply because I have an interest, but, by no means, the funds to collect, this sort of stuff.  There, it’s not unusual to see mind boggling numbers such as a pre auction estimate of $20,000,000 to $30,000,000, for example.  And, there are folks that can pay these sorts of numbers each and every sale, and more, and a runner up bidder to make sure these numbers get this high.

So, in a relative sense, it makes the antique arms hobby seem cheap.  Also, with what real estate sells for now, a top notch Winchester is only a fraction of the cost of a house.  

When I posted this, I had Winchester 1886 serial number 1 in mind as one of the most expensive Winchester rifles ever sold, at $1.265 million.  I didn’t realize it still was the record holder.  Especially mind boggling when you note that, as addressed on this forum, this rifle, and the “story”, is problematic.

https://freerangeamerican.us/most-expensive-rifles-gun-auction/

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May 11, 2024 - 1:14 pm
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Lots of passionate, post-63 M70 Collectors. There’s much more to know about the guns than meets the eye.

If you can’t convince them, confuse them

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