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The dire future of Winchester collecting
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May 11, 2024 - 10:32 pm
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TXGunNut said
During my career I was able to observe entities who tried to accommodate new customers or accommodate existing customers in new ways that were outside of their area of specialization. Many of these concerns were leaders in their field. For some big corporations this may be a successful business model but for a smaller organization these efforts were generally more trouble than they were worth. I am of the old “do one thing, do it well” school of thought and I have lost this argument several times with big thinkers who wanted to be the next WalMart. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should. 

Remaining focused on the pre-64 Winchesters is a good plan. Trying to accommodate folks who are not interested in the guns this site is dedicated to makes no sense to me. I’m not saying I don’t like the 9422’s or the FN Model 70’s or the other post 63 models because I certainly do, in some cases.

I’m here to learn about and discuss the pre-64 Winchester. 

 

Mike

  

I’m not aware this Association is (at least formally) dedicated to Pre-64 Winchesters – that is, it’s not in any of the organization’s documents I’ve read so far. WACA’s stated purpose (in its Bylaws) refers to “Winchester made firearms”.  If in fact the membership wishes to further restrict its focus, it should undertake to amend its bylaws and attendant literature. I think that’s a short-sighted mistake but vox populi vox dei.  I’m here to learn as much as I can about all of it, which hardly adds up to someone who’s “not interested in the guns this site is dedicated to.” Unlike Medusa, seeing photos of a 1980 Winchester Model 70 African (made in New Haven by the Winchester-Western Division of Olin Industries, Inc.) will not likely turn anyone into stone and some might find it interesting. 

As evidence of my good faith, I’ve just ordered Jeff’s book on the Model 69 – one of which I regret selling.  And if further proof is needed, when my son produced grandchildren, I added a very clean little Model 67A Boy’s Rifle to his armory.  (That one came from Larry’s consignment rack on Main Street.) Further Affiant Saith Not…

- Bill 

 

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May 11, 2024 - 10:42 pm
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I see no downside to a post-63 Forum

If you can’t convince them, confuse them

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May 11, 2024 - 10:42 pm
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TXGunNut said
During my career I was able to observe entities who tried to accommodate new customers or accommodate existing customers in new ways that were outside of their area of specialization. Many of these concerns were leaders in their field. For some big corporations this may be a successful business model but for a smaller organization these efforts were generally more trouble than they were worth. I am of the old “do one thing, do it well” school of thought and I have lost this argument several times with big thinkers who wanted to be the next WalMart. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should. 

Remaining focused on the pre-64 Winchesters is a good plan. Trying to accommodate folks who are not interested in the guns this site is dedicated to makes no sense to me. I’m not saying I don’t like the 9422’s or the FN Model 70’s or the other post 63 models because I certainly do, in some cases.

I’m here to learn about and discuss the pre-64 Winchester. 

Mike

Well stated, and that is precisely what the WACA’s purpose is.

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May 11, 2024 - 10:54 pm
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Bert H. said

TXGunNut said

During my career I was able to observe entities who tried to accommodate new customers or accommodate existing customers in new ways that were outside of their area of specialization. Many of these concerns were leaders in their field. For some big corporations this may be a successful business model but for a smaller organization these efforts were generally more trouble than they were worth. I am of the old “do one thing, do it well” school of thought and I have lost this argument several times with big thinkers who wanted to be the next WalMart. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should. 

Remaining focused on the pre-64 Winchesters is a good plan. Trying to accommodate folks who are not interested in the guns this site is dedicated to makes no sense to me. I’m not saying I don’t like the 9422’s or the FN Model 70’s or the other post 63 models because I certainly do, in some cases.

I’m here to learn about and discuss the pre-64 Winchester. 

Mike

Well stated, and that is precisely what the WACA’s purpose is.

  

…perhaps the purpose also needs updating? Just kicking the coals a little… 🙂

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May 11, 2024 - 11:09 pm
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Zebulon said

Zebulon said

TXGunNut said

During my career I was able to observe entities who tried to accommodate new customers or accommodate existing customers in new ways that were outside of their area of specialization. Many of these concerns were leaders in their field. For some big corporations this may be a successful business model but for a smaller organization these efforts were generally more trouble than they were worth. I am of the old “do one thing, do it well” school of thought and I have lost this argument several times with big thinkers who wanted to be the next WalMart. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should. 

Remaining focused on the pre-64 Winchesters is a good plan. Trying to accommodate folks who are not interested in the guns this site is dedicated to makes no sense to me. I’m not saying I don’t like the 9422’s or the FN Model 70’s or the other post 63 models because I certainly do, in some cases.

I’m here to learn about and discuss the pre-64 Winchester. 

 

Mike

  

I’m not aware this Association is (at least formally) dedicated to Pre-64 Winchesters – that is, it’s not in any of the organization’s documents I’ve read so far. WACA’s stated purpose refers to Winchester guns.  If in fact the membership wishes to further restrict its focus, it should undertake to amend its bylaws and attendant literature. I think that’s a short-sighted mistake but vox populi vox dei.  I’m here to learn as much as I can about all of it, which hardly adds up to someone who’s “not interested in the guns this site is dedicated to.” Unlike Medusa, seeing photos of a 1980 Winchester Model 70 African (made in New Haven by the Winchester-Western Division of Olin Industries, Inc.) will not likely turn anyone into stone and some might find it interesting. 

As evidence of my good faith, I’ve just ordered Jeff’s book on the Model 69 – one of which I regret selling.  And if further proof is needed, when my son produced grandchildren, I added a very clean little Model 67A Boy’s Rifle to his armory.  (That one came from Larry’s consignment rack on Main Street.) Further Affiant Saith Not…

  

I was chasing one of these once.  It was like new (as many .458 are).  I recall the price was $325.  I hesitated just one day too long and I missed it.  I just bring it up as throughout my collecting (and accumulating), there has been variability.  If the right 9422 came along I would be interested.  

                 

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May 11, 2024 - 11:11 pm
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Jeremy P said

Bert H. said

TXGunNut said

During my career I was able to observe entities who tried to accommodate new customers or accommodate existing customers in new ways that were outside of their area of specialization. Many of these concerns were leaders in their field. For some big corporations this may be a successful business model but for a smaller organization these efforts were generally more trouble than they were worth. I am of the old “do one thing, do it well” school of thought and I have lost this argument several times with big thinkers who wanted to be the next WalMart. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should. 

Remaining focused on the pre-64 Winchesters is a good plan. Trying to accommodate folks who are not interested in the guns this site is dedicated to makes no sense to me. I’m not saying I don’t like the 9422’s or the FN Model 70’s or the other post 63 models because I certainly do, in some cases.

I’m here to learn about and discuss the pre-64 Winchester. 

Mike

Well stated, and that is precisely what the WACA’s purpose is.

  

…perhaps the purpose also needs updating? Just kicking the coals a little… 🙂

  

And again, please feel free to step up to the plate and take on the added time & effort to become WACA’s “Post-1963” Guru (expert)… my plate is full!

Bert

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May 11, 2024 - 11:29 pm
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Zebulon said

As evidence of my good faith, I’ve just ordered Jeff’s book on the Model 69 – one of which I regret selling.  

I’ve never owned a 69 (yet), or even handled one, but I have & love the book!

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I think what we are all missing here is that when Winchester reached the year 1964 the name remained Winchester and there was no big firearms company that bought them out.  Had that been the case, we would be probably discussing this in different terms.  Let’s say in 1964 Colt purchased Winchester, we wouldn’t probably having this conversation.  And, you have to realize that 1964 is when the quality took a real tumble.  I would argue the quality started to deteriorate certainly by the time the Olin family became involved with Winchester in the 1930s, and possibly the beginning of it all might have begun around WWII when receivers of certain rifles were not up to the standards of their predecessors with regards to finish, leading to widespread flaking.

And, some real life examples:

A Savage made Fox is not as well regarded as one manufactured in Philadelphia.

L C Smith shotguns are not as well regarded when Marlin took ownership of the company as compared to Hunter Arms Company examples.

I don’t think Parker shotguns after Remington became involved should be as highly regarded as their predecessors, but I don’t think others regard this the same way.

And, just because a maker remains owned by a corporate entity without a merger or sale doesn’t mean that it’s not immune to a real slide in production standards, independent of Winchester’s situation.  I handled a NIB Golden 39A about 15 years ago.  Fit and finish are extremely poor, especially compared to the one I have from the 1970s.  Mine is of extremely poor fit and finish compared to the fine examples from the 1920s.  I’m still trying to find one such firearm to complement mine, the first firearm I ever owned.

A few clarifications with regards to Winchester’s decline, as per my definitions.  The Model 21 was John Olin’s project.  I’m not even sure it made a profit but the quality certainly was there and this is an outlier from my discussion.

I’m familiar with a Winchester 64 manufactured in 1940 and the quality, while not quite up to pre WWI standards, is certainly good, and far nicer than later examples.

While the quality took a major dump post 1963 at Winchester, I did have my hands on a Model 70 that was manufactured close to the end of Winchester at New Haven.  Its quality was excellent by the standards of the day and far better than the late 1960s junk Winchester became synonymous with.  It’s unfortunate that it all ended in 1981, as this was a quality product that, had it survived to today, while nowhere near pre WWI standards, was certainly excellent by today’s standards.

And, just because a manufacturer didn’t fold doesn’t mean the product is as good as it once was.  When Colt discontinued the Colt Single Action Army revolver in 1940 and resurrected it in 1956, it just wasn’t the same.  The fit and finish of one from today is laughable compared to the pre 1940 precision and quality.  Roy Jinks posted to the Smith & Wesson forum once about how he couldn’t understand why more folks didn’t collect early Smith & Wessons than those that already do as the fit and finish of early production far exceeds modern stuff.  I’m not sure if he gave a specific year but I’m guessing that it would be at least up to when the numbered models began as the Registered Magnum and nonregistered magnum revolvers, although fairly late production examples, 1935 to into the 1940s, are some of Smith & Wesson’s finest products ever.

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mrcvs said
 It’s unfortunate that it all ended in 1981…

 

In 1981, the name on the deed to the New Haven property changed.  What else?  Was the workforce disbanded & new employees hired?  Any substantial changes in machinery or to the physical plant? 

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clarence said

mrcvs said

 It’s unfortunate that it all ended in 1981…

 

In 1981, the name on the deed to the New Haven property changed.  What else?  Was the workforce disbanded & new employees hired?  Any substantial changes in machinery or to the physical plant?  

I forgot my Winchester history.  I should have stated that it’s unfortunate that it all ended after USRAC became Winchester in 1981.  Thank you for jogging my memory, Clarence.

If I had to guess, that Winchester Model 70 I am referencing probably remained of poor, or at least lesser, quality until 1981 (from 1964).  The Model 70 I handled would have dated from 1986 or 1987 and was USRAC production.  While certainly not to pre 1964 standards, the quality was excellent for the times, far better than the late 1960s and 1970s stuff and it’s unfortunate that’s not still manufactured today.

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clarence said

mrcvs said

 It’s unfortunate that it all ended in 1981…

 

In 1981, the name on the deed to the New Haven property changed.  What else?  Was the workforce disbanded & new employees hired?  Any substantial changes in machinery or to the physical plant? 

In answer to your first question, Management.  Yes, there were a substantial number of former Winchester employees that were disbanded (laid off).  I believe that the entire Custom shop was dissolved.  While there were no immediate notable production changes in the year 1981, major revisions did begin shortly thereafter.  One example was in 1983 with the introduction of the horrendous abomination referred to as the Model 94AE, followed in later years by the ugly and useless Cross-bolt safety, later replaced by the Tang safety.  The Model 94 had been Winchester’s bread winner for decades, but the USRACo management saw fit to destroy it.

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Bert H. said One example was in 1983 with the introduction of the horrendous abomination referred to as the Model 94AE, followed in later years by the ugly and useless Cross-bolt safety, later replaced by the Tang safety.  The Model 94 had been Winchester’s bread winner for decades, but the USRACo management saw fit to destroy it. 

Was USRA’s “destruction” of the M 94 more horrendous than Olin’s “destruction” of the M 70?  In both cases, management was attempting to make changes that would stimulate sagging sales, such as adapting the ’94 for scope use.  I regard a scope on a ’94 as absurd, but most younger shooters think they can’t shoot without one.  Blame personal-injury lawyers, not USRA, for the introduction of safeties.  I hate them, but many shooters have never owned a gun without one, & EXPECT to find them on every gun–even some new revolvers! 

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May 12, 2024 - 2:46 am
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Bert H. said

clarence said

mrcvs said

 It’s unfortunate that it all ended in 1981…

 

In 1981, the name on the deed to the New Haven property changed.  What else?  Was the workforce disbanded & new employees hired?  Any substantial changes in machinery or to the physical plant? 

In answer to your first question, Management.  Yes, there were a substantial number of former Winchester employees that were disbanded (laid off).  I believe that the entire Custom shop was dissolved.  While there were no immediate notable production changes in the year 1981, major revisions did begin shortly thereafter.  One example was in 1983 with the introduction of the horrendous abomination referred to as the Model 94AE, followed in later years by the ugly and useless Cross-bolt safety, later replaced by the Tang safety.  The Model 94 had been Winchester’s bread winner for decades, but the USRACo management saw fit to destroy it.

Bert

  

In view of the pounding the Connecticut River Valley gun companies were then taking at the courthouse in product liability verdicts, I expect USRAC’s outside product liability counsel and its insurer and re-insurer insisted on the cross-bolt and subsequent tang safeties, on pain of loss of coverage.  I don’t like those mods either but management was very likely backed into a corner.  If they had failed to act, the individual directors and certainly the executive officers, might have been exposed to personal liability to furious shareholders when the next idiot pulled a loaded Model 94 across the back seat and gutshot himself and his grieving widow got the equivalent of ten years worth of gross sales as a salve for her loss of consortium.  

And because I can’t resist:  A current “reissued” Model 73 carbine made by Miroku for Browning Arms Company d/b/a Winchester Repeating Arms has neither a cross-bolt safety nor a tang safety; only the good old half-cock position of its hammer. Nor is the hammer rebounding. The tang is d/t’ed for an aperture sight and unless the owner wants to desecrate it, there’s no way to put a scope on it or a receiver sight, for the matter of that.   We should take heart – things don’t always keep going downhill inevitably. 

Bill 

- Bill 

 

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clarence said

Bert H. said One example was in 1983 with the introduction of the horrendous abomination referred to as the Model 94AE, followed in later years by the ugly and useless Cross-bolt safety, later replaced by the Tang safety.  The Model 94 had been Winchester’s bread winner for decades, but the USRACo management saw fit to destroy it. 

Was USRA’s “destruction” of the M 94 more horrendous than Olin’s “destruction” of the M 70?  In both cases, management was attempting to make changes that would stimulate sagging sales, such as adapting the ’94 for scope use.  I regard a scope on a ’94 as absurd, but most younger shooters think they can’t shoot without one.  Blame personal-injury lawyers, not USRA, for the introduction of safeties.  I hate them, but many shooters have never owned a gun without one, & EXPECT to find them on every gun–even some new revolvers! 

  

Yes it was… at least in my opinion.  When you look at it from a sales number perspective, the Model 70 simply does not compare with (or to) the Model 94.  To intentionally destroy a classic hunting gun the way the USRACo did it was borderline criminal.

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Zebulon said

As evidence of my good faith, I’ve just ordered Jeff’s book on the Model 69 – one of which I regret selling.  

  

Thank you Sir!

I saw your order come through and you did not use the WACA discount code to save an extra $10 so I will include a sawbuck as a book marker for you.

I mention this as a reminder to all WACA members that you can order from the “Store” tab, then select the “Books” tab and see the additional discount codes offered to our members on some items, these discounts often go overlooked and are yet another perk of WACA membership.

Thanks again for your order, I hope you enjoy the textbook and get another Model 69 back in your hands soon.

Best Regards,

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Tedk said
Lots of passionate, post-63 M70 Collectors. There’s much more to know about the guns than meets the eye.

  

I didn’t know the first part of that statement.  That is, I didn’t know there were a significant number of passionate post-63 M70 collectors.  I’m not surprised but just have never met one.  

As to more about those guns than what meets the eye, that does fit my knowledge base; I studied post-63 M70’s more than pre-64 M70’s for decades.  That may sound odd, but it all started as a very young boy scouring hardware, gun and sporting goods stores for the free catalogs.  I started that in about 1964 or 1965, so I never had my hands on a pre-64 catalog. But every year I eagerly snapped up the newest catalog and read them over and over.  Winchester, Marlin, Savage and Remington were my favorite catalogs.  I studied everything in them.  Well into my adulthood, I continued to collect (and study) these catalogs.  So yes, I am very familiar with the post-64 guns.  I can remember the first catalog that featured the 9422.  

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JWA said

Zebulon said

As evidence of my good faith, I’ve just ordered Jeff’s book on the Model 69 – one of which I regret selling.  

  

Thank you Sir!

I saw your order come through and you did not use the WACA discount code to save an extra $10 so I will include a sawbuck as a book marker for you.

I mention this as a reminder to all WACA members that you can order from the “Store” tab, then select the “Books” tab and see the additional discount codes offered to our members on some items, these discounts often go overlooked and are yet another perk of WACA membership.

Thanks again for your order, I hope you enjoy the textbook and get another Model 69 back in your hands soon.

Best Regards,

  

After spending half my life in libraries, even the smells of a new, well-made book are a great comfort. It’s a great cover, by the way.  

I’ve seen enough of your work in glimpses on this forum to realize reading  the book will be like taking a “smart pill” on your subject.  

- Bill 

 

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May 12, 2024 - 1:41 pm
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“To intentionally destroy a classic hunting gun the way the USRACo did it was borderline criminal.”

When assigning motives to the past actions of others, we shouldn’t ignore context.  You’ve said sales figures during the USRAC Era are unknown.  In addition to the litigation tsunami I’ve already described, which is fact, not opinion, isn’t it possible sales of the Model 94 were declining because of changing consumer preferences?  I love the Model 71 but understand why it got the axe in 1957. 

The graying of my Pearl Harbor to Normandy generation and the much larger wave of Baby Boomers, has brought on a healthy market based on nostalgia for the guns of our youth. That, together with the rise in popularity of SASS cowboy action and black powder competitions, has revived the demand for lever action rifles — but not just any lever guns. 

Uberti/Beretta and FN/Browning have made marketing mistakes but not very many. Look at their catalogs and what customers are demanding is obvious.  

In 1966 I never expected in my lifetime to see the re-emergence of the Henry, the 1866, the 1873 and 76, 1886, 1992 and 1895. And now the 1894 in almost classic form.  

Are they identical to the originals we collect? No, but those who take the time to study them can tell us they get closer and closer every year.  The phenomenon does nothing worse than confirm and vindicate our good taste. 

 

  

- Bill 

 

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May 12, 2024 - 2:54 pm
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Please excuse my use of the, “post-64” term in one of my posts on this topic.  

I reflected on this term a bit and concluded it is fair to say that the Winchesters I looked at in their catalogs from 1965 and on, were, technically, “post-64” Winchesters  Wink

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I think the point some are missing is that while interest in some post-63 Winchesters may be growing, perhaps due to some coal-kicking, the traditional enthusiast is still focused on the collectible Winchesters; the vast majority of which were built before 1964. A sizable portion of that group only collects pre-war examples. The horizon for C&R guns may be moving but the line in the sand for traditional Winchester collectors was drawn before many of us started collecting. Quite frankly I can’t afford to have broad interests, I’ll remain focused on the Pre-64 Winchesters and their rich history. I don’t mean to step on toes but I think a site (and organization) devoted to firearms needs to have some parameters.

 

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