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The dire future of Winchester collecting
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The Great State
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May 12, 2024 - 2:57 pm
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Bert H. said

  

And again, please feel free to step up to the plate and take on the added time & effort to become WACA’s “Post-1963” Guru (expert)… my plate is full!

Bert

  

I wouldn’t have suggested you take any additional load, I think someone will someday dynamically fill that void…without factory records for all the post-63 stuff it would seem like ripe pastures for the same sorts of research studies and cataloguing that others have done to fill the pre-64 gaps. I do have some of these newer guns as well but I’m no expert….maybe a project for a future day!

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May 12, 2024 - 3:41 pm
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TXGunNut said
I think the point some are missing is that while interest in some post-63 Winchesters may be growing, perhaps due to some coal-kicking, the traditional enthusiast is still focused on the collectible Winchesters; the vast majority of which were built before 1964. A sizable portion of that group only collects pre-war examples. The horizon for C&R guns may be moving but the line in the sand for traditional Winchester collectors was drawn before many of us started collecting. Quite frankly I can’t afford to have broad interests, I’ll remain focused on the Pre-64 Winchesters and their rich history. I don’t mean to step on toes but I think a site (and organization) devoted to firearms needs to have some parameters.

 

Mike

  

 Well said, “needs to have some parameters”. T/R

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May 12, 2024 - 3:55 pm
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“To intentionally destroy a classic hunting gun the way the USRACo did it was borderline criminal.”

In addition to the litigation tsunami I’ve already described, which is fact, not opinion, isn’t it possible sales of the Model 94 were declining because of changing consumer preferences?  Zebulon said
  

Such as,  “I like the light weight & handiness of the ’94, but I really want a scope.  No choice but to buy a Marlin.”  The AE gave such shooters a choice.

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May 12, 2024 - 4:24 pm
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TXGunNut said
“I don’t mean to step on toes but I think a site (and organization) devoted to firearms needs to have some parameters.”

 

Mike

  

Mike, 

The “parameters” or stated purpose of the Association, from inception to now has been “Winchester made firearms.”  That’s in the Bylaws, the Articles of Incorporation and probably in the application for 501c(3) status.  

I don’t question that the majority of the members are still primarily interested in Winchester guns and their predecessors made before November of 1963. When the Association was formed in the Nineteen Seventies,  that dire event had occurred but not the product improvements later undertaken prior to Olin’s divestment.  

This Association is not a business organization nor a government agency.  It is a voluntary gathering of academically inclined, fairly collegial fellows (in the broader, non-sexually exclusive sense) interested in exploring and preserving knowledge of a common subject.  Snakeskin boots, cowboy hats and blue collar protestations notwithstanding. 

I simply cannot see the harms you envision, perhaps because I don’t understand them.  What is it that’s contained in the 1964-1981 history and production of Olin/Winchester that, if explored and discussed by interested members, will cause the rest to burn their WACA membership cards,  give away their prewar collections and join Everytown Against Gun Violence? 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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May 12, 2024 - 5:01 pm
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Zebulon said

TXGunNut said

“I don’t mean to step on toes but I think a site (and organization) devoted to firearms needs to have some parameters.”

Mike

Mike, 

The “parameters” or stated purpose of the Association, from inception to now has been “Winchester made firearms.”  That’s in the Bylaws, the Articles of Incorporation and probably in the application for 501c(3) status.  

I don’t question that the majority of the members are still primarily interested in Winchester guns and their predecessors made before November of 1963. When the Association was formed in the Nineteen Seventies,  that dire event had occurred but not the product improvements later undertaken prior to Olin’s divestment.  

This Association is not a business organization nor a government agency.  It is a voluntary gathering of academically inclined, fairly collegial fellows (in the broader, non-sexually exclusive sense) interested in exploring and preserving knowledge of a common subject.  Snakeskin boots, cowboy hats and blue collar protestations notwithstanding. 

I simply cannot see the harms you envision, perhaps because I don’t understand them.  What is it that’s contained in the 1964-1981 history and production of Olin/Winchester that, if explored and discussed by interested members, will cause the rest to burn their WACA membership cards,  give away their prewar collections and join Everytown Against Gun Violence?  

Bill,

If presented with the opportunity to purchase a pre-64 or a post-1963 production Model 94 in similar condition, which one of them would you pick up off the table and take home?  That is truly the only question and answer that really matters (or is germane) to this ongoing discussion.

As you mention, there is no “harm” that will occur if someone chooses to collect post-63 (1964 – 1981) production Winchester firearms, or if someone chooses to explore and discuss them.  In fact, I encourage you to do so.  It is simply a fact that currently, the number of “interested” members is a very significant minority within the WACA organization. When & if that changes, I suspect the WACA will make that transition as well.

Bert

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May 12, 2024 - 5:22 pm
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Bill,

If presented with the opportunity to purchase a pre-64 or a post-1963 production Model 94 in similar condition, which one of them would you pick up off the table and take home? Bert H. said

 

Wouldn’t that depend on the price?  The pre-’64 would undoubtedly command a premium, due to pre-’64 mania, which drives some sellers to the absurdity of listing even pre-war guns as “pre-’64.”

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May 12, 2024 - 5:27 pm
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“If presented with the opportunity to purchase a pre-64 or a post-1963 production Model 94 in similar condition, which one of them would you pick up off the table and take home?  That is truly the only question and answer that really matters (or is germane) to this ongoing discussion.”

……….

“It is simply a fact that currently, the number of “interested” members is a very significant minority within the WACA organization. When & if that changes, I suspect the WACA will make that transition as well.”

___________

Bert,

Good morning.

Higher Authority expects me to take her to lunch,  so I must leave off this pleasant discussion …for the moment.  You’ve staved off my Alzheimer’s for at least a week. 

 Before I forget to say so, I look forward to meeting you in Cody this July. And I do appreciate your considerable efforts for the Association.

Bill 

 

  

- Bill 

 

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May 12, 2024 - 5:36 pm
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Bill-

It’s not that I fear any harm in the inclusion of items outside the parameters as I envision them. The key word for me is “Collectors”, I may be wrong in some folks’ opinion but I don’t find the majority of Post-63 Winchesters collectible. I enjoy having several hanging around here for various purposes but at this point in time I and many traditional collectors don’t consider them collectible. This is a gathering of collectors, I’m thinking we should focus on collectibles. As usual I’m oversimplifying things but I have to do that so I can understand. 

 

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May 12, 2024 - 6:32 pm
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This has been an interesting and thought-provoking topic with many tentacles.  I enjoy things that make me think – as long as I don’t have to think too hard.  Just the term, “collector item” is problematic.  Many items come out and are immediately sold as, “collector items.”  “Collector item” is used by a variety of sellers to charge more.  This feels like trickery to me for many items.  So… I am wary with the, “collector item tern.”  Also reminds me of being in various used good shops and I happened to pick up something and right away, the store owner pipes up, “that there is a collector item.”  Color me skeptical.

Additionally, the name, “Winchester” is problematic and pivots a great deal based on the year the gun was made.  There’s two bookends of the spectrum here – the first Winchesters and the other end – the most recent rifles produced which have, “Winchester” stamped on them.  For those most recent rifles, if you collect them, are you collecting, “Winchesters”?  Well, technically, it does say, “Winchester” on the rifle but most here wouldn’t give any credence to that, “fact.” Most will draw a line between those two bookends and there’s going to be a good bit of variation where that line is drawn.

And of course, we mainly just care about what we personally like and focus on.  I know some here will only collect Winchesters that have antique status.  That is their focus and that’s all they pursue.  Any rifle made after 12/31/98 is of minimal interest because it is not something they will pursue.  So for them, as “collectors” a “collector item” is by their personal definition, a rifle that has antique status.

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May 12, 2024 - 7:07 pm
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Well, technically, it does say, “Winchester” on the rifle but most here wouldn’t give any credence to that, “fact.”steve004 said

  

Luckily for the companies making & selling them, they aren’t depending on “most here” to keep them in business; which is doing very well, evidently.

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May 12, 2024 - 7:31 pm
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I’ve never understood the collectors of antique only guns. The date was arbitrarily chosen, there is no discernible difference between a gun built in 1898 and 1899. I don’t mind filling out a 4473 or sending a copy of my C&R to purchase a firearm but I guess that could make a difference to some folks. 
On the confusion over the definition of “collectible” in my opinion something recently manufactured to be acquired or admired with no other purpose would better fit the definition of “curio”. I like history and I like guns that have a bit of history instead of being inspired by it. 

 

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May 12, 2024 - 7:34 pm
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clarence said

Well, technically, it does say, “Winchester” on the rifle but most here wouldn’t give any credence to that, “fact.”steve004 said

  

Luckily for the companies making & selling them, they aren’t depending on “most here” to keep them in business; which is doing very well, evidently.

  

But Clarence, a big difference is that ‘most here’ are not the folks buying these latter day ‘Winchesters’. 

There appears to be a dichotomy here on the forum of whether or not the post 63 firearms are worthy of dedicated space on this forum. I don’t think any of us dispute that there continues to be interest in post 63 Winchesters, just perhaps a different set of collectors (with obviously some cross over of interests). 

I for one, am ‘guilty’ of being a ‘cross over’, since I admire and own some 9422 and other post 63 Winchester rimfires and centerfires. But for the most part, I didn’t buy those later guns as ‘collectibles’. 

And remember that Winchester ‘collecting’ is really the basis for this forum. So there is rightly a place for the pre 63 ‘purists’ here as well, probably front and center.  

No one here is shunned, but I think the focus of this forum will always be the collecting of older Winchesters.

 

Paul

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May 12, 2024 - 8:22 pm
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I’ve never understood the collectors of antique only guns. The date was arbitrarily chosen, there is no discernible difference between a gun built in 1898 and 1899. I don’t mind filling out a 4473 or sending a copy of my C&R to purchase a firearm but I guess that could make a difference to some folks. 

TXGunNut said

  

Seems difficult for some here to understand that not everyone is so fortunate as to live in a place were a friendly FFL dealer is no more than a few blocks away, who’ll charge you no more than the price of a Big Mac to effect a transfer.  For me, it’s a 30 m drive & $50 for the pleasure.  But wait, suppose you have a hold on your background check, which means you have to make TWO trips to the dealer, because you have to be present there in the store when the call is made, then come back 3 (or 5) days later to pick up the gun, & having a C&R makes no diff at all.  THAT is the “discernible” difference it makes!

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You’re right, Clarence. New York is a beautiful state but the politicians who run it are quite a pain in the backside. We’re lucky in Texas, our politicians are often a bit crazy but we prefer the term “eccentric”. I wish you lived down this way, Clarence. I’d like to meet you and sit around talking about .22’s now and then.

 

Mike

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May 12, 2024 - 8:37 pm
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TXGunNut said
I’ve never understood the collectors of antique only guns. The date was arbitrarily chosen, there is no discernible difference between a gun built in 1898 and 1899. I don’t mind filling out a 4473 or sending a copy of my C&R to purchase a firearm but I guess that could make a difference to some folks.   

You should mind.  It’s a form of tracking and it’s also an infringement upon your Second Amendment rights, even though that Amendment specifically states they shall not be infringed.

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May 12, 2024 - 9:10 pm
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If a post 63 study were to be added, I think a section on the 9422 would make a lot of sense. Seems of all the post 63 Winchester’s that were produced prior to the 2006 closing of New Haven, the 9422 has the largest following and appeals to both pre 64, and post 63 collectors, and they are still at a price point where younger collectors can afford them, although of late new in box examples are getting up there in price, especially the 9417 variant.

Just my two cents. Plus I like 9422’s.

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May 12, 2024 - 9:12 pm
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mrcvs said

TXGunNut said

I’ve never understood the collectors of antique only guns. The date was arbitrarily chosen, there is no discernible difference between a gun built in 1898 and 1899. I don’t mind filling out a 4473 or sending a copy of my C&R to purchase a firearm but I guess that could make a difference to some folks.   

You should mind.  It’s a form of tracking and it’s also an infringement upon your Second Amendment rights, even though that Amendment specifically states they shall not be infringed.

  

I do mind but if you knew me a little better you’d understand why I have no illusions of being able to stay off Uncle Sugar’s radar. My background has been investigated multiple times on the local, state and federal level as part of the licenses and permits I’ve had to obtain to get by in the “Land of the Free”. In fact, my company name could be considered thumbing my nose at certain bureaucrats.

 

Mike

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May 12, 2024 - 11:14 pm
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I prefer antique rifles but if you like the .33 WCF, you’re out of luck (unless you find one rebarreled to an antique receiver – not my cup of tea).

It’s been my observation that this forum is routinely courteous and helpful to guests showing up regarding a post-63 Winchester.  If someone has a question about a post-63 rifle, we do our best to answer their question – and many times someone here knows the answer.  If someone posts photos of a post-64 rifle, they may not receive much response or interest.  That’s not shunning, it’s just a lack of interest or anything to say.  

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May 12, 2024 - 11:35 pm
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I just can’t compreend the License plate logo “Live Free or Die” from a state that has some of the biggest “rights ” infringements in the U.S. and a lot of those people still walking around , not dead.  Of course I don’t have a lot of room to critisize, being Canadian and all, We gave up a lot of our freedom a long time ago, about the time of Pierre Trudeau and Jean Cretien.

W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.

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May 13, 2024 - 5:27 pm
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TXGunNut said
I’ve never understood the collectors of antique only guns. The date was arbitrarily chosen, there is no discernible difference between a gun built in 1898 and 1899. I don’t mind filling out a 4473 or sending a copy of my C&R to purchase a firearm but I guess that could make a difference to some folks.

Mike

  

In states like Kalifornia there are a list of reasons why it is better to legally own antiques.  One new law they are trying to pass is to tax each gun every year.   My antiques are not on their list.

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