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Made a graphical representation of production years...sharing
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The Great State
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October 20, 2024 - 12:42 am
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production-year-chart-as-of-10-19-24.pngImage Enlarger

 

I made a production years chart since I like graphical representations of numbers & data. This helps me visualize all the year ranges. I used ChatGPT (AI) to gather the data, so if you see something terribly wrong I can update it, otherwise very small variations are fine. Also does not include submodels, special circumstances, company changeovers, parts cleanup (like the 1873) etc. A very rough guide for glancing at.

Sharing in case it would help anyone.

It’s pretty small, so if you need to, download the picture file and open in something you can zoom!

 

EDIT: NEWEST VERSION WILL BE NEAR OR AT END OF THREAD!!!

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October 20, 2024 - 1:37 am
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Bert, I know you have all this memorized…and then some! I’m not sure how you keep all that in there and have instant recall…

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October 20, 2024 - 1:56 am
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Jeremy P said
Bert, I know you have all this memorized…and then some! I’m not sure how you keep all that in there and have instant recall…  

I was simply blessed with a very good memory as it applies to facts & figures.

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October 20, 2024 - 1:58 am
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Bert H. said

Jeremy P said

Bert, I know you have all this memorized…and then some! I’m not sure how you keep all that in there and have instant recall…  

I was simply blessed with a very good memory as it applies to facts & figures.

  

Did your job in the Navy capitalize on this?

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October 20, 2024 - 2:23 am
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The last 73 was JAN 1933

Bob

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October 20, 2024 - 2:44 am
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1873man said
The last 73 was JAN 1933

Bob

  

Bob, why are the “last year” reports all over the place for the 1873? Are those late ones some sort of unofficial cleanup of parts after discontinuing? 

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October 20, 2024 - 2:52 am
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Jeremy P said

Bert H. said

Jeremy P said

Bert, I know you have all this memorized…and then some! I’m not sure how you keep all that in there and have instant recall…  

I was simply blessed with a very good memory as it applies to facts & figures.

  

Did your job in the Navy capitalize on this?

  

Yes it did…  trimming and ballasting a 19,000+ ton submarine in varying sea states and conditions required a fair amount on mental computations.

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October 20, 2024 - 3:38 am
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Jeremy,

The 73 production was fairly consistent until the end of 1917 then it slowed in January of 18 and then got sporadic, sometimes 1 gun a month to the end of 18. Then it got to one gun a year and then skipped a few years and then in April 1929 there was a run of about 100 of them which I would consider the final cleanup of parts. But the last one was in 33. They were making the receivers up until the last gun or at least putting serial numbers on them. This derived from the polishing room records.

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October 20, 2024 - 11:56 am
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1873man said
Jeremy,

The 73 production was fairly consistent until the end of 1917 then it slowed in January of 18 and then got sporadic, sometimes 1 gun a month to the end of 18. Then it got to one gun a year and then skipped a few years and then in April 1929 there was a run of about 100 of them which I would consider the final cleanup of parts. But the last one was in 33. They were making the receivers up until the last gun or at least putting serial numbers on them. This derived from the polishing room records.

Bob

  

Thanks Bob, this is good info and seems to have happened as I figured. I like 1918/9 as a better stop date for my generic chart than I do 1933 but your point is well taken. I probably knew this once upon a time and forgot but I don’t have Bert’s memory gene! Laugh

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October 20, 2024 - 5:40 pm
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I see quite a few minor things at first glance. Quick example, I thought the 76 went until the year 1898? 

Depending on what your definition of what a true “Winchester” really is this graphic could change drastically. A simple example would be the fact that the Winchester Factory in New Haven, CT closed in 2006 and nothing made with the name on it will be made stamped New Haven on it. I suppose they could rebuild the plant in New Haven, but I don’t see that in the cards. Then there is the whole Olin transition thing regarding what makes a true Winchester.

If you’re calling this a “production” chart vs say a serialization chart, that dates would also change in my opinion. An example being the Model 1887 Shotgun. They didn’t serialize any guns between 1898-1901, but I believe they still assembled and “produced” and sold guns during those years until 1901. When the Model 1901 continued the serialization range. Which brings up the point that you don’t show the Model 1901 Shotgun on the chart.

Just a few quick observations in my humble opinion.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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October 20, 2024 - 6:22 pm
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I see quite a few minor things at first glance. Quick example, I thought the 76 went until the year 1898? 

Maverick said

Yes the 76 went into 98 but similar to the 73 tapered off starting in 92.

Bob

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October 20, 2024 - 6:44 pm
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Maverick said
I see quite a few minor things at first glance. Quick example, I thought the 76 went until the year 1898? 

Depending on what your definition of what a true “Winchester” really is this graphic could change drastically. A simple example would be the fact that the Winchester Factory in New Haven, CT closed in 2006 and nothing made with the name on it will be made stamped New Haven on it. I suppose they could rebuild the plant in New Haven, but I don’t see that in the cards. Then there is the whole Olin transition thing regarding what makes a true Winchester.

If you’re calling this a “production” chart vs say a serialization chart, that dates would also change in my opinion. An example being the Model 1887 Shotgun. They didn’t serialize any guns between 1898-1901, but I believe they still assembled and “produced” and sold guns during those years until 1901. When the Model 1901 continued the serialization range. Which brings up the point that you don’t show the Model 1901 Shotgun on the chart.

Just a few quick observations in my humble opinion.

Sincerely,

Maverick

  

You’re very correct and thanks gentlemen for the input, that’s exactly what I was hoping for. I knew it would be super difficult to include all the different nuances in this format, limited only by time really…. I just wanted a broad “guide” to refer to at a glance. There’s a lot of conflicting reports on some of these and even different ways to define “production,” I agree.

I’m leaving out all the inherent company changes, etc. I didn’t want a sniper’s accuracy look, just a broad graphical representation I could refer to visually to make sense of it all…

I updated the 1876 with one extra year and I don’t know how I missed the 1901! I will add it. Updated chart below.

production-year-chart-as-of-10-20-24-1.pngImage Enlarger

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October 20, 2024 - 9:45 pm
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Hi Jeremy,

I see there are a few more you missed – 

ThumbTrigger (Model 99) rimfire

1904 (rimfire)

20 (shotgun)

21 (shotgun)

24 (shotgun)

25 (shotgun)

36 (shotgun)

37 (shotgun)

41 (shotgun)

42 (shotgun)

43 (centerfire rifle)

47 (rimfire)

55 (rimfire), different rifle than the 55 centerfire

72 (rimfire)

77 (rimfire)

or any of the post 1962 “new model” rimfires

Best Regards,

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October 20, 2024 - 11:59 pm
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Bert H. said

Jeremy P said

Bert, I know you have all this memorized…and then some! I’m not sure how you keep all that in there and have instant recall…  

I was simply blessed with a very good memory as it applies to facts & figures.

  

Obsolete Ford part numbers, anyone? Most of them are only found on microfiche and IF your Ford dealer has a reader they won’t admit it. I still have thousands of part numbers rattling around in my addled brain. The problem with Winchester is that they would apparently build “discontinued” models of the situation called for it, manufacturing new parts if necessary. That’s almost impossible in today’s manufacturing world. Makes it hard to draw a graph unless you wanted to use the date the model was officially discontinued with the understanding that Winchester could and would build a rifle if they had parts to do so. 

Mike

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October 21, 2024 - 12:03 am
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JWA said
Hi Jeremy,

I see there are a few more you missed – 

 

I’m on it! 💪 

On a side note, I scored a pair of 22s for a pretty low price ($350?). Should have a nice model 59 and 69A waiting for me, once I’m home again….you’ve inspired me! 

 

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October 21, 2024 - 12:08 am
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TXGunNut said
Makes it hard to draw a graph unless you wanted to use the date the model was officially discontinued with the understanding that Winchester could and would build a rifle if they had parts to do so. 

Mike

  

That’s basically what I’ve done….used the most “official” discontinue date with the understanding that there’s plenty of exceptions. Winchester’s M.O.! A chart like this could never be “perfect” without also being a damn mess…

I needed a graphical representation to keep me straight. Call it a beginner’s graphical guide to production dates….with lots of asterisks****

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October 21, 2024 - 2:40 am
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Since you are using a bar chart you could make the “official” dates one color and then change to a different color for the parts cleanup and miscellaneous production.  That way the additional information is still on the single bar with no additional clutter.  On charts I have done I also include the official Product Notice or C/M notice date for the discontinuation of a model, they are not always correct but close.

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October 21, 2024 - 1:00 pm
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I like it! For the folks with older eyes it may be helpful to have one chart for pre-war and one for post-war. When the bar is labeled on one end of a large page and the bar is on the other end it is sometimes difficult to connect the two. I like the second color for parts cleanups. Maybe the rimfires deserve a chart of their own. I’d be very interested in seeing their relative time frames. My dad used to use time lines when teaching on historical subjects, I learned they help me understand certain events better. I made a series of time lines when researching my article on T.C. Johnson and his model 1903. When thinking about Johnson, Mason, Browning and yes, Black Elk, it is helpful to understand the relative time frames. A bar graph is a bit more useful, I’m glad to know someone smart enough to make them!

 

Mike

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October 21, 2024 - 2:52 pm
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You can look at page 17 in the Model 69 book, I used a color bar graph to illustrate the design and manufacture timeline for the Winchester bolt action repeating models which seemed to work well with “old eyes”.   In Jeremy’s spreadsheet for all models it would be a LOT of information on the page though.  Maybe break it up by action type or Shotgun, Rifle, Rimfire, etc.?

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October 21, 2024 - 4:19 pm
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JWA said
On charts I have done I also include the official Product Notice or C/M notice date for the discontinuation of a model, they are not always correct but close.

I was about to ask, What makes an model discontinuation “Official”?

Is it a notice in a catalog? Something being dropped from the catalog? Is it a CIM (Change In Manufacture Notice)? 

Then my next question would be, What makes these not correct and why?

Of course, that might be a bit much to put in a graphic.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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