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Maverick said
JWA said
On charts I have done I also include the official Product Notice or C/M notice date for the discontinuation of a model, they are not always correct but close.
I was about to ask, What makes an model discontinuation “Official”?
Is it a notice in a catalog? Something being dropped from the catalog? Is it a CIM (Change In Manufacture Notice)?
Then my next question would be, What makes these not correct and why?
Of course, that might be a bit much to put in a graphic.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Hi Maverick,
All good questions. I should have put “official” in Caps since the word is part of the title of the Winchester notice (see the image below).
It is not a Change in Manufacture notice as those were a different form from a different department.
Over the years the notices changed titles slightly and some were issued by the Engineering department and some were issued by Marketing. Here is a sample of some of the notices from which information can be gleaned:
Change in Product Notice (C/P)
Change in Manufacture Notification (C/M)
Official Product Notice (OPN)
Product Notice (PN)
Product Change Announcement (PCA)
Product Change Authorization (also PCA)
There are also notices that Winchester referred to as (CR) and (GEC) and I don’t know what those acronyms mean.
To answer your question on what makes some of these “not correct” is that production did not always follow exactly what the marketing notices indicated. Some examples of that are the Model 67 finger groove stock. Marketing wanted to eliminate the finger grooves in 1936 and issued a product notice stating they were discontinued. Houze used that notice date for the end date of the actual finger grooves however there were at least 35,000+ finger groove blanks already in stock so they were issued up until 1938 with a finger groove stock and the remaining finger groove stocks used on the dual sight models until 1941, 5 years after the Product Notice was dated.
Another example is the “official” discontinuation of the Model 75 which was published in Product Change Authorization G322 in 1958 which stated the Model 75 had been “discontinued and dropped from the line” however the production department kept manufacturing receivers and assembling rifles for 3 more years, up to November of 1961 (the month the last receiver was serialized in the polishing room)
I have been collecting and logging all of the notices mentioned above related to pre-64 firearm production and have over 700 entered into the spreadsheet so far so I can search by Model, Topic, Component, Notice Type, etc. It is a VERY useful tool for me when doing research but you have to be aware of the fallacies of some of the information.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
November 7, 2015
Offline
I think the company memo announcing the end of (regular) production when available is the best date as it documents the intention of the company. The guns built after that are sometimes quite interesting and worthy of supporting documentation so the date of the “last known” is also good information to have.
I was probably thinking about your graph, Jeff. As I recall it did a good job of illustrating the subject and I can’t wait to get my reference library back home, my poor old memory needs a fact-check or two on that 69A I scored in Cody. I missed Elliot at the TGCA show this past weekend. The club and personal matters kept me busy, hope I wasn’t out of pocket when he came thru.
Mike
Online
Jeff & Mike, those are good ideas. I’m going to keep refining it and experiment with the dual-bars (two colors) and breaking them out by action into smaller individual charts. I’ll revive this thread with updates as I get it done!
The type of chart I chose in excel would not let me relabel the models on the right side (for readability), still figuring out the nuances of making a chart like this work, it wasn’t as easy as I thought it would be.
Mike, we’re in week 4 over here of 11, moving into some busy stuff. A whirlwind for sure. This week does not have the free time I had the last two days! (But it’s awesome so far…)
This is a great addition to our overall knowledge base, and I expect I and many others will refer to this often. I hope you keep it updated.
This is an idea, not a suggestion since it would take a lot of time and effort and would be something I certainly don’t have time to complete, but:…
If this were in a relational database instead of excel, you could add all the sources of information, etc. for a more thorough and complete research tool.
Just a thought.
Nevada Paul
Life Member NRA
November 7, 2015
Offline
Jeremy-
I’m glad you didn’t ask me about this project before you set out on it, I could have told it would be a bit of a rabbit hole but I think you’re up to it. Eye on the prize, Jeremy! Study breaks are good but the classroom and networking opportunities you’re experiencing are pretty awesome, from what I hear.
Mike
Here is the first page of the C/M making the 1873 obsolete and the Proposed Change in Product.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Here is the first page of the C/M making the 1873 obsolete and the Proposed Change in Product.Bob
Thanks Bob!
I did not have that one!
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Here’s a breakout of SHOTGUN only and CENTERFIRE/RIMFIRE only, with additional sizing changes for old eyes!
Shotgun:
CF/RF:
Jeremy,
Production of the Model 1887 ended on March 7th, 1899… not in the year 1901 as shown in your chart. Production of the Model 1901 began in June 1901, and ended in July 1919 (parts clean up ran until November 1931).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Jeremy P said
Thank you Bert….updated!
SG:
CF/RF:
The Model 90 and the Model 06 parts clean-up continued through July 1941 1942, with more than 8,700 rifles assembled in that time period.
Bert
The Model 43 production was May 1948 – December 1953.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Jeremy P said
UPDATED:RF/CF:
SG:
I gave you the wrong date for the Model 90 & 06 (I apparently fat fingered it again)… it should be 1942 versus 1941.
Sorry about that,
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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