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Bob,
Are we talking about the same 86 carbine with case condition? I cannot see 80% case on the 50ex. The seller also sold a 86 carbine in 45-70 with more color. From what I have read, sunlight would fade case color in short order. Your thoughts.
Walter
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
I made a mistake on that one. In your experience, what do the case colors look like after being in the sunlight for a time?
Walter
Walter,
They don’t get dark like this. They fade and get lighter and the receiver gets a silver appearance. Here are some enhanced photos of it were I tried to brighten the colors. Its been recased.
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Walter,
No telling
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
wallyb said
Bob,Are we talking about the same 86 carbine with case condition? I cannot see 80% case on the 50ex. The seller also sold a 86 carbine in 45-70 with more color. From what I have read, sunlight would fade case color in short order. Your thoughts.
Walter
An old post but a while back I spoke with one of the most respected and experienced case color craftsmen in Canada and advised case color only fades from handling and not sunlight. He said he re-case colored a couple of his own rifles(Winchester & Marlin) and left them exposed to sunlight every day weather permitting at the shop for almost 30yrs purposely. He reported no fading. He said sunlight seems like a reasonable theory but it’s from our hands and any contaminates on them that fade CC. ??
Rick C
Rick and others,
Maybe I should stay out of this discussion, but I need provide some historical input if you will. Years ago, now, David Kennedy took over as curator of the firearms collection at Cody. First thing he noticed was the display of essentially “new” condition lever action Winchester rifles at the entry of the museum where the big windows are right before the main room. There was a case colored 1886 in the display and the surface facing out, towards people, had faded to near nickel appearance. He took the 1886 out of the closed display, where obviously they were not handled, and the back side of the receiver which was away from the direct sun through the windows was very well vivid and bright case colored. He put it back as the damage had already been done and no recovering of the original case colors on the outwards surface of that particular rifle. Now everyone knows of at least a few “old wive’s tales” regarding firearms. This is not one of them, in my estimation. I don’t care to experiment with any of mine to prove the point. I have LED lights in my trophy room to reduce the chances of any fading of case colors OR mounted game. There are no windows. Will it prove out? I hope to live that long! Tim
Rick,
My statement is from observation of cased guns. I often would see cased lever actions with the right side faded as compared to left. I know most people would display a Winchester on the wall with the loading gate side out since it displays better. If one side fades and not the other I can’t believe its from handing although when you carry a gun by a right handed person the front of the right side of the receiver would be degraded and where your fingers wrap around (the balance point). This would not explain the whole right side faded. Now your craftsmen in Canada did he varnish the case colors after he was done? that probably will affect the aging process in sunlight. I know original Winchester were varnished and where they still have varnish they have vivid color.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Hi Tim and Bob,
I cannot refute any of your statements, and was of the same belief that you both present. I would concede to my previous comments and yes to the varnish being applied with his case color final application and most likely the reason no fading which I forgot to mention.
Your replies are welcome by me and appreciate your comments.
RickC
Rick C
mrcvs said
Is it serial number 99191 being offered for $14,750? If so, THAT gun is a takedown, and Winchester 1886 rifles in takedown were always blued; receivers NOT case-coloured. Also, I have never seen a factory letter quite like that one. Not sure what to make of it. It “seems” that the rifle was converted from 50 Express to .33 WCF in 1903, but yet the firearm remains in 50 Express. In this case, I would guess the letter is in error, as transposed from original records that are in error.
I was struck by what an interesting museum letter this one has. Quite the puzzler.
It’s pointing out the obvious to say that BOTH handling & sunlight damage the color, but since most guns are subject to more handling wear than sunlight exposure, the odds are that fading on most guns is more the result of handling than sunlight. Which is evident on guns with no remaining color on broad surfaces, but traces of color in areas protected from handling.
1873man said I know original Winchester were varnished and where they still have varnish they have vivid color.
Was it varnish or lacquer, or maybe shellac? Big diff is drying time.
steve004 said
mrcvs said
Is it serial number 99191 being offered for $14,750? If so, THAT gun is a takedown, and Winchester 1886 rifles in takedown were always blued; receivers NOT case-coloured. Also, I have never seen a factory letter quite like that one. Not sure what to make of it. It “seems” that the rifle was converted from 50 Express to .33 WCF in 1903, but yet the firearm remains in 50 Express. In this case, I would guess the letter is in error, as transposed from original records that are in error.
I was struck by what an interesting museum letter this one has. Quite the puzzler.
One could read into / conclude that possibly while the 86 in 50 EX having been a takedown was repaired for some reason (likely an issue caused by improperly taking down the firearm) and at that time a new & totally separate takedown barrel in the relatively new 33 WCF caliber was ordered. As the 33 WCF just came out in 1902 and perhaps the owner wanted the new latest cartridge and likely kept the 50 EX barrel as well. Then over time or for whatever reason the additional 33WCF takedown barrel was lost / separated from the rest of the gun.
This scenario would make the most sense to explain the letter and condition of the gun. A lot of people back then and even today will mess up a takedown by not knowing how to properly take it down.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
clarence said
1873man said I know original Winchester were varnished and where they still have varnish they have vivid color.
Was it varnish or lacquer, or maybe shellac? Big diff is drying time.
Varnish is just the term I used to refer to the coating in that post. Its like calling a 66 a brass gun vs. gun metal, it my not be 100% correct but it gets the point across.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
What ever was applied, I always say varnish, it works. I have an 1887 shot gun that looks like new where the color is covered and going grey where it is not.
Chuck said
What ever was applied, I always say varnish, it works. I have an 1887 shot gun that looks like new where the color is covered and going grey where it is not.
Any time varnish was applied in a factory setting, to furniture or anything else, hand-rubbing of the surface was required to smooth out the roughness caused by the dust that settled while it was drying; which was the advantage of using fast-drying lacquer, though it’s not as durable as varnish.
wallyb said
Hi,The Winchester that I was referring to is an 1886 Carbine in 50 ex. GI 100720670
Walter
Is it still listed? I couldn’t find it.
Steve, this post was from 2016. I was just going through some old threads and decided to comment about the effects of sunlight on case colors that I was previously informed.
RickC
Rick C
RickC said
Steve, this post was from 2016. I was just going through some old threads and decided to comment about the effects of sunlight on case colors that I was previously informed.RickC
Thanks Rick. I sometimes forget to look at the date of the posts. This explains why I couldn’t find the listing!
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