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letters that do not state case colored
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July 4, 2016 - 3:34 am
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Hi,

If a Winchester letter does not state case  colored, and the gun is, is that a factory error or what?  Can 20% case be faked?

Walter

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July 4, 2016 - 4:02 am
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Walter,

What model and year is it?

Bob

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July 4, 2016 - 4:15 am
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Bob,

That is just a general question that I as curious about right now. There is a 50 exp 1886 carbine on GI that I saw. I know the seller who is selling a large Winchester collection for  a retired banker. The seller is legit. Just trying to learn something new.

Walter

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July 4, 2016 - 4:30 am
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Walter,

If it was  anything other than a 86 I would say it should letter cased but the early 86’s were normally cased  and there for not stated on the letter.

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July 4, 2016 - 4:44 am
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Bob,

Thanks for the info. This is how you learn stuff.

Walter

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July 4, 2016 - 6:27 am
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Walter,

For the Models 1885, 1886, 1887, and 1890, the standard finish was case color (up to August of 1901), and as such, Winchester did not list it in the ledger entries. For the Model 1885 ledger entries, many of the rifles made during the transition from case color to blued receiver frames will have “CH” listed in the remarks column. I suspect the same is true for the Model 1886 and 1890 ledger records. For earlier production rifles that were not case color finished, “Blue” will be found listed in the remarks column if case color was the standard finish.

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July 4, 2016 - 12:20 pm
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Is it serial number 99191 being offered for $14,750?  If so, THAT gun is a takedown, and Winchester 1886 rifles in takedown were always blued; receivers NOT case-coloured.  Also, I have never seen a factory letter quite like that one.  Not sure what to make of it.  It “seems” that the rifle was converted from 50 Express to .33 WCF in 1903, but yet the firearm remains in 50 Express.  In this case, I would guess the letter is in error, as transposed from original records that are in error.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1886/antique-winchester-1886-take-down-in-50-express.cfm?gun_id=100721372

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July 4, 2016 - 4:20 pm
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I have several Winchester letters and a few S&W letters as well. I know they do make mistakes at times.

I have a nice S&W 4 screw M48-0 with the 8 3/8″ bbl. The letter came back as a M14 Target Masterpiece with a 6″ bbl. Mr. Jinks rechecked it and that is what they had for my serial number. There is no way to make a M14 out of a M48 rimfire.

Letters are great, but sometimes they do not show the entire picture or are 100% wrong.   Big Larry

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July 4, 2016 - 5:13 pm
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I did have a Model 1886 that had a lot of special order features, but no mention of the frame being takedown. I scratched my head for about 2 years and then called Cody. They verified that it is takedown and it got left off of the letter.

In reference to the subject of the thread, this firearm really is a takedown with 20% blue, as ALL takedowns contained a blued finish.

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July 4, 2016 - 8:09 pm
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mrcvs said 

In reference to the subject of the thread, this firearm really is a takedown with 20% blue, as ALL takedowns contained a blued finish.  

I think that is an overly generous estimate of the remaining blue, but you are correct in that all Model 1886 Take Down rifles were blued.  Winchester made a specific point of informing their customers of that fact in their catalogs from 1893 though the early 1900s.

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July 4, 2016 - 9:19 pm
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Bert H. said

I think that is an overly generous estimate of the remaining blue, but you are correct in that all Model 1886 Take Down rifles were blued.  Winchester made a specific point of informing their customers of that fact in their catalogs from 1893 though the early 1900s.

Bert  

Agreed! 10% remaining blue would be most generous. I simply stated the condition as stated in the advertisement, which was inflated. Then again, I thought the price was inflated but I must be wrong as a sale is pending.

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July 5, 2016 - 3:02 am
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Hi,

The Winchester that I was referring to is an 1886 Carbine in 50 ex. GI 100720670

Walter

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July 5, 2016 - 3:49 am
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Walter,

I just don’t like the case on that gun. It just doesn’t match the finish on the barrel and tube. The case on the top tang where your hand would wear off the finish quickly is all there and I see old pitting there that should not have case over it.

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July 5, 2016 - 4:10 am
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Bob,

Those are interesting comments. I will go back and study the photos. The faking of case color is part of my question. If this color is around 20-30% ,how is it faked 50 years ago when Winchester’s were not in demand?  I see 99% Winchesters at auction that I call BS. Maybe I am wrong. 

Walter

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July 5, 2016 - 9:41 am
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I would steer clear of that one! The case colouring does not exhibit normal wear if this was the original finish. Even if it was original, still not worth $19,000.

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July 5, 2016 - 2:02 pm
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wallyb said
Bob,

Those are interesting comments. I will go back and study the photos. The faking of case color is part of my question. If this color is around 20-30% ,how is it faked 50 years ago when Winchester’s were not in demand?  I see 99% Winchesters at auction that I call BS. Maybe I am wrong. 

Walter  

Walter,

The case looks to me to be a lot more than 20-30%, I would say 80% but there is a real lack of color to it. When I see the receiver it looks like a black and white photo with no color. It looks more like the Turnbull colors I see, more dark hues than the reds, orange and yellow that you would see on a original. I’m not saying its a Turnbull job since it does not look like his work.

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July 5, 2016 - 3:12 pm
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Some good observations posted here.  After reading them and looking at the photos the case coloring really looks surreal to me – can’t pinpoint it but it just doesn’t look right.  The photos are almost like watercolor paintings.

Another observation:  the description states “the stocks are in excellent condition.  …have no deep checks, cracks or scratches present.”  Yet when you look at the photos the buttstock and forearms both have some serious gouging.  Can’t see where it’s worth $ 19K.

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July 5, 2016 - 5:56 pm
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As Bob said, the case hardened finish has no color to it. You would expect to see some yellows, reds, green/blues.  Its just gray, brown, and maybe a little blue/green.  For this condition of receiver, hammer, and lever I would expect to at least see vivid (correct) colors on the lever where its protected by the receiver or on parts of the lever flats.  And then there is what looks like surface pitting under the case hardening.  The wear pattern in the case hardening for a carbine showing fairly rough use on its wood just doesnt look right either. The juncture of all wood to metal doesnt show any signs of grim or dirt or–super clean.  

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July 5, 2016 - 7:05 pm
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A lot of times these things are re-cased and they take down the finish to look like they are faded or older finishes.  Ive seen racks of 86’s in the past at shows with 4-5 rifles that are case hardened but all have the same even amount of case hardened finish remaining–usually on the order of 25-40% across the board.  Makes you question how could all those rifles have the same condition % on the case hardening. 

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July 5, 2016 - 9:06 pm
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Well, someone had a spare $ 19K sitting around ’cause now it’s marked “SOLD”.

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