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This rifle was built by Henry Slotterbek (beck). He was killed in 1888. There is no serial number that I have found, haven’t looked under the forearm yet, it is fit so tight that the bluing would scratch sliding it forward. These photos should give you all something to comment on. It is in .45 gov and the bbl. has been lined.
Please let me know what you experts think. Thanks for your help.
The octagon part of the barrel is not factory work and barrel markings are not factory, either. Also, the pistol grip would likely have had an ebony insert and not a cap 1888 and before.
There should be a serial number on the lower tang, although these can be removed on the Model 1886.
So Henry was killed in 1888? So he had to have built this rifle in the last two years of his life – given these rifles weren’t turned out prior to 1886.
No serial number is a deal killer for most (if not all) serious collectors. A non-factory built barrel is also major defect. Henry Slotterbek is a complete unknown which means it adds nothing to the appeal of the rifle. The capped pistol grip stock is highly suspect. Final analysis… it is not a Winchester I would consider adding to my collection unless it was priced very cheap.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Online
Looks like nice work as far as I can tell. What is Leroy asking for it? I suspect he built some nice single shot rifles as well.
Mike
Bert H. said
Henry Slotterbek is a complete unknown which means it adds nothing to the appeal of the rifle.
They aren’t as famous as Pope or Schoyen, but Henry & his brother Charles were well known custom gunsmiths in L.A. I can’t imagine why anyone would want that fancy brl on an ’86, but there’s no accounting for taste. My source places Henry’s death in 1895.
Appears gun has been completely restored, so maybe that’s when an un-serialized DS trigger was added. Lyman #5 front sight is too “late” for gun of this vintage.
Agree the gun was restored. You can see pitting on the receiver end of the barrel. I do wonder if the serial number on the lower tang was buffed off during the restoration, as it looks like there maybe a faint mark or two left of the serial number.
The only thing that may make it of interest to some collectors is if you could figure out the serial number and do a search through Cody to see if it was ordered without a barrel or some of the special features.
How does it shoot?
Sincerely,
Maverick
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First, while I have good, representative models 1886, I am not an 1886 specialist and thus have a different mindset than a specialist in the model might have. As such, this rifle has no appeal to me at all as a collectible. The lack of a decipherable serial number would be a real deal killer even had it not been restored subsequent to being customized by the gunsmiths, Slotterbeck. However, I could envision a specialist having interest in a period customized piece much as there are those who appreciate a Pope customized 1885. Perhaps some of our more specialized aficionados would weigh in? Tim
Bert H. said
No serial number is a deal killer for most (if not all) serious collectors. A non-factory built barrel is also major defect. Henry Slotterbek is a complete unknown which means it adds nothing to the appeal of the rifle. The capped pistol grip stock is highly suspect. Final analysis… it is not a Winchester I would consider adding to my collection unless it was priced very cheap.Bert
Henry Slotterbek is well know in the Sharps arena. The barrel was built by him then installed on the gun. He started in Philadelphia and later moved to Los Angeles.
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/wp-content/uploads/images/auctions/397/prov/52176a2.PDF
See the 12th screen, page 235.
Chuck said
Henry Slotterbek is well know in the Sharps arena. The barrel was built by him then installed on the gun. He started in Philadelphia and later moved to Los Angeles.
Very interesting that the favorite gunsmith of Whelen, Crossman, & other celebrated riflemen in the ’20s, Ludwig Wundhammer (misspelled in that description) had been an employee of Slotterbeck. The brief reference I found was in one of Gerald Kelver’s books, who suggested Henry rifled some of his brls, but his info is frequently mistaken. I wish Morphy had identified his source.
Chuck, I am somewhat surprised that there is so little knowledge on the Slotterbecks. Both brothers were very famous in CA early days. Both were killed by firearms accidents. Wundhammer was Henry’s assistant and was present when he was killed. He took over the business which was later sold to P.O. Ackley. If you do as much research as I have done, it appears that this may be the rifle that killed Henry. There is an article in the LA Times from June, 1888 telling just what happened.
Maverick said
Agree the gun was restored. You can see pitting on the receiver end of the barrel. I do wonder if the serial number on the lower tang was buffed off during the restoration, as it looks like there maybe a faint mark or two left of the serial number.The only thing that may make it of interest to some collectors is if you could figure out the serial number and do a search through Cody to see if it was ordered without a barrel or some of the special features.
How does it shoot?
Sincerely,
Maverick
It seems like there is a general lack of knowledge about the Slotterbek’s. They were quite well known on the west coast, considered to be the best gunsmiths in CA at the time. Both brothers often took off the serial numbers of guns they customized, sometimes putting them, or a new one, under the forearm. Research on them is very interesting, you would learn a lot.
clarence said
Bert H. said
Henry Slotterbek is a complete unknown which means it adds nothing to the appeal of the rifle.They aren’t as famous as Pope or Schoyen, but Henry & his brother Charles were well known custom gunsmiths in L.A. I can’t imagine why anyone would want that fancy brl on an ’86, but there’s no accounting for taste. My source places Henry’s death in 1895.
Appears gun has been completely restored, so maybe that’s when an un-serialized DS trigger was added. Lyman #5 front sight is too “late” for gun of this vintage.
Bert,
The trigger is one of his brothers design as his brother Charles holds the first set trigger patent from before this time by a number of years.
steve004 said
So Henry was killed in 1888? So he had to have built this rifle in the last two years of his life – given these rifles weren’t turned out prior to 1886.
That is correct. If you would do some research you will find Henry, like his brother Charles were both killed in firearms accidents. The LA Times has an article from June, 1888 that tells the story.
Bert H. said
No serial number is a deal killer for most (if not all) serious collectors. A non-factory built barrel is also major defect. Henry Slotterbek is a complete unknown which means it adds nothing to the appeal of the rifle. The capped pistol grip stock is highly suspect. Final analysis… it is not a Winchester I would consider adding to my collection unless it was priced very cheap.Bert
Yep – that says it all for me. I fully realize many guys like a lot of variety and don’t always care about a gun being original and correct but for me personally, I have always tried to look at the purchase of a Winchester from 4 directions, in this order of importance;
1. originality
2. condition
3. rarity
4. price
If you can’t get past 1st base, you can’t make a home run. Many may not care but it has worked for me. About 12 years ago a friend of mine and fellow Winchester collector here in Alaska retired and moved to Missouri. He asked me to help him box and ship his guns. There were 101 Winchesters, from a couple of Henry rifles to a highly used pre-64 model 88. Their was not one single gun I had any personal interest in because many had originality problems and the those which were original seriously lacked condition. I had know this guy since the mid 70’s and he was always a quantity over quality collector – if it was a Winchester lever, he would buy it. About 2 years after he moved, he had a heart attack and passed away. His family is still trying to get rid of the vast majority of those guns. Brown guns and messed with guns have always been and will always be hard to sell.
mrcvs said
The octagon part of the barrel is not factory work and barrel markings are not factory, either. Also, the pistol grip would likely have had an ebony insert and not a cap 1888 and before.There should be a serial number on the lower tang, although these can be removed on the Model 1886.
No one said that this is a factory rifle, however it was modified by one of the most famous gunsmiths in CA, he did a great deal of custom work, but this is the ONLY Winchester to be found that was customized by a Slotterbek.
Burt Humphrey said
Yep – that says it all for me. I fully realize many guys like a lot of variety and don’t always care about a gun being original and correct but for me personally, I have always tried to look at the purchase of a Winchester from 4 directions, in this order of importance;
1. originality
2. condition
3. rarity
4. price
If you can’t get past 1st base, you can’t make a home run. Many may not care but it has worked for me. About 12 years ago a friend of mine and fellow Winchester collector here in Alaska retired and moved to Missouri. He asked me to help him box and ship his guns. There were 101 Winchesters, from a couple of Henry rifles to a highly used pre-64 model 88. Their was not one single gun I had any personal interest in because many had originality problems and the those which were original seriously lacked condition. I had know this guy since the mid 70’s and he was always a quantity over quality collector – if it was a Winchester lever, he would buy it. About 2 years after he moved, he had a heart attack and passed away. His family is still trying to get rid of the vast majority of those guns. Brown guns and messed with guns have always been and will always be hard to sell.
I have no argument with that line of thinking, however, you all miss the point. This is a one-of-a-kind rifle modified by a famous gunsmith, would you pass on a Wundhammer? He never made any complete rifles that I know of. Another point all of you seem to have missed, this may be the very rifle that killed Henry! I have done a great deal of research into this possibility. Mute point, it is not for sale, I thought I would get some expert opinions unfortunately most all are knocking this rifle, having no idea of it’s history nor even it’s builder.
ERROL SEVERE said
I have no argument with that line of thinking, however, you all miss the point. This is a one-of-a-kind rifle modified by a famous gunsmith, would you pass on a Wundhammer? He never made any complete rifles that I know of. Another point all of you seem to have missed, this may be the very rifle that killed Henry! I have done a great deal of research into this possibility. Mute point, it is not for sale, I thought I would get some expert opinions unfortunately most all are knocking this rifle, having no idea of it’s history nor even it’s builder.
Errol – I did not mean to show any disrespect and if I did I apologize. My only point was that the gun would not be for me because of what you noted above, “modified”. I have never owned and would never own a Turnbull restoration gun but I certainly think they are a work of art and beautiful guns.
ERROL SEVERE said There is an article in the LA Times from June, 1888 telling just what happened.
If you have a copy of it, I’d like to read it. Hard to believe someone as experienced as he would have stood in front of the muzzle of any cocked rifle; makes me suspect some part of the story has been left out.
ERROL SEVERE said
I have no argument with that line of thinking, however, you all miss the point. This is a one-of-a-kind rifle modified by a famous gunsmith, would you pass on a Wundhammer? He never made any complete rifles that I know of. Another point all of you seem to have missed, this may be the very rifle that killed Henry! I have done a great deal of research into this possibility. Mute point, it is not for sale, I thought I would get some expert opinions unfortunately most all are knocking this rifle, having no idea of it’s history nor even it’s builder.
I don’t see any issue from the stand point that the rifle was modified, customized, re-done or however you want to call it by a “period” gunsmith. Such period rifles can be valuable, look at what the H.M. Pope rifles bring. But that said, the ones that are valuable, they’re still in original condition as modified by Harry Pope. Your rifle appears to me to have been re-finished at a more recent time. As I noted, I doubt Henry Slotterbek would have blued his barrel with rust pitting marks all over it.
If he moved or put the serial number under the forearm, that would be good to know. As you can do a search on the number to see what further information can be held. Lots of H.M. Pope rifles were ordered as merely receivers. So did Mr. Slotterbek do this? If he did, that in my opinion would make it more valuable from a collecting standpoint. Prior to the 1938 gun control act, I can see it feasible that a gun smith would remove a serial number. Some manufacturers didn’t even use serial numbers on their rifles. But from a collecting standpoint that makes it a hard sell, as most people don’t want to own rifles without serial numbers, due to applicable gun law issues. That said, the original serial number may still be recoverable.
Anyway you slice it, it is an interesting gun, but with all forms of collecting originality is a key factor in the value or evaluating something. Even when it pertains to something being modified. Take firearms engraved by Nimschke. He did both factory and non-factory engraving work. Most collectors would consider even his non-factory work as highly collectable, as where else will you find his work. That said, a factory or non-factory engraved piece done by Nimschke that has been more recently “Refinished” is not as valuable of a piece.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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