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What established grading standard do you use to help determine the condition and estimated value of a firearm? I ask since there are quite a few to choose from, like: The PPGS (photo system), NRA Condition Standards, Standard Catalog of Firearms Grading System, The Red Book grading system, etc, or combination, or modification, of your own.
Your comments will be greatly appreciated.
James
I don’t use any standard system besides grading the blue or case color in a percentage. Then I take in account all the other issues with the gun and determine a value by what I see in the market. I haven’t bought a blue book in 20 years since they are so out of touch with real values of Winchesters. I do have the Red Book.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I echo Bob’s sentiments with the added considerations for the wood condition. Never been a fan of the grading system, too much variance on how people view different aspects or conditions of a gun or its component parts.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
James, the best grading system is the auctions! Go to Rock Island and look at past auctions. Find comparable guns by picture and description, see what they sold for, take into consideration the buyer fee and you have appraised you gun to the current market at the national level. Good luck finding a buyer, but that’s what it’s worth. T/R
jwm94 said
What established grading standard do you use to help determine the condition and estimated value of a firearm? I ask since there are quite a few to choose from, like: The PPGS (photo system), NRA Condition Standards, Standard Catalog of Firearms Grading System, The Red Book grading system, etc, or combination, or modification, of your own.Your comments will be greatly appreciated.
James
The single hardest part of grading the condition of a firearm is the variation in the quality of photography. I have seen the same rifle photographed by different people, with different cameras, in different light and they rifle can at times look VERY different and the interpreted % condition of the rifle has quite a large error bar associated with it. You can take any “valuation guide” and if you are aware of the problems with the photography and who has sold the rifle the numbers might be as much as +/- 50% in my opinion!! See the post #22 in this thread https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-22-rim-fire/other-than-the-fact-that-this-is-an-early-first-model-1890-what-makes-it-so-special/page-2/#p77308
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
The single hardest part of grading the condition of a firearm is the variation in the quality of photography.
About 50 yrs ago, I was young & ignorant enough to drive about 300 m. to examine a number of well-photographed (I THOUGHT !) guns for sale–before the owner placed them with a dealer. What I saw when I got there, I could barely recognize as the same guns in the color photos! So, a 600 m. round-trip for nothing, & a hard lesson learned.
Twobit Hit it on the head. I’ve seen 25-30 pics of a firearm and is a totally different looking piece when I hold it in my hands some times better or sometimes lesser. That’s why I personally don’t get to hyped up about getting or sending photos. I’ll gladly send the piece for eyeball inspection. Now saying that I once sold a Mod. 94 to a member then after 5 months He decided He didn’t like it,I’m not pleased, but under the circumstances We came to an amicable agreement, He kept the gun and I took less money. I’ve been buying selling trading Winchesters for about 50 years now and unless I know the person well I wouldn’t buy a gun on pics only without the right to return it upon inspection. I,ve bought a lot of guns unseen and have never been ripped off by a bonafide collector. How We rate these old guns sometimes vary and that’s why the in hand inspection. My thoughts only
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
I’d like to thank each of you for your absolutely great comments, everyone of which is based to some degree, or in one fashion or another, on percentage of finish and its color. I’m certain they will not only re-enforce the beliefs of some folks that their method(s) of appraising both percentage and condition of various types of finishes are inline with that of our community. I also think your comments will inspire newbies to this same end as well.
I’ve only been engaged in this…hobby for 25 years or so, while many of you have been at it for over half a century and some of you in very big ways. Back then, being able to accurately describe the percentage of bluing or any other types of factory finishes and then describe the condition of such finishes was pretty much a necessity, provided one wanted to improve their communication skills, for say, writing or understanding newspaper or magazine ads, but online gun auctions and photography changed such interesting and detailed verbiage to a good extent. As I see it, Flayderman said it best, “The knack for estimating finish is quite easily acquired, but it does necessitate actual first-hand experience in seeing and handling the guns themselves.” It was this ease of acquired knowledge gained through guidance from people like Flayderman and other authors, friends, visiting gun shops and learning from the owners and, of course, gun shows, where more hands on experience could be gained…all of which made it so enjoyable for me. This learning process would not be fun to anyone were it difficult to understand, especially with the wealth of knowledge provided to day by individuals, authors. and online benefits.
Thanks again,
James
On the discussion We had a few days ago of buying guns on pictures only etc., I stated I,d never been ripped off by a collector. Well I guess I’ve got to eat some humble pie. Like I said I’ve been doing this for about 50 years and consider Myself fairly knowledgable especially on’94’s. I have no idea how this one slipped by Me but it did. I purchased a nice little and rare ’94 from a fella I’d bought many guns from over the years , apparently He purchased it at an auction and made some major changes to the gun. Anyways not even thinking about inspecting the gun at the time I guess I put the gun in My rack of about 1400 or so guns I had at that time, the thought of a fake not even crossing My mind. Some 4 years later, 2 years ago, I started selling off some of My collection, I sell this gun to a member, who after a period of time discovers the gun is a fake and contacts Me fairly upset at His purchase,(understandably so), I don’t believe him, but agree to refund some money anyway, thinking I’m being had. After My post a few days ago on this topic The member got in touch with Me still upset(again rightfully so), but after a few e-mails back and forth He informed Me the gun in question was parted out and trashed by him. Now I feel like a complete jerk. Any ways I believe We have reconciled this issue and I do apologize for the implications I made. The point I guess I.m trying to make here is just because We think We are experts on something, sometimes things escape Us for whatever reason, and that We should always keep an open mind and remain teachable. I don’t think I would ever purchase another gun without taking advantage of a thourough inspection, and definatly not from a picture
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
November 7, 2015
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Well said, Mr. Mero. Takes a lot to admit a mistake and let others learn from it. Thank you.
OTOH I recall seeing one gun in particular awhile back that was photographed so well and critically that I admitted his pics showed me things I would have likely missed in a hands-on inspection. The gun in the pics was being offered for sale by a member, I’d never hesitate to buy a gun from him after viewing his pics and reading his description.
Mike
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