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First year production 1894?
May 20, 2020
11:33 am
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Me
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RIA has lot 29 listed as first year production? No 10 o’clock screw & serial # 11577

https://www.rockislandauction.com/catalog/79

AG

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May 20, 2020
2:10 pm
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Rick,

As we all know (except RIA), it is not a "first year" production Model 1894, as it was manufactured very late in the year 1895. Second, it is a 32-40, which precluded it from being a First Model. Last point... production of the First Model 1894 essentially ended in the early 5000 serial range (though there are a few in the low 6000 range). In my ongoing survey of the First Model 1894, I have documented (217) of them thus far. My First Model research survey covers serial numbers 1 - 7999.

Bert

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May 20, 2020
4:40 pm
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Lot #3003 is ser. #5 for comparison.

May 20, 2020
8:43 pm
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would that serial# be second model first year

May 20, 2020
9:39 pm
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jay94543@aol.com said
would that serial# be second model first year  

No, and as I mentioned in my previous reply, it is a late 2nd year production Model 1894.

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May 21, 2020
12:28 am
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They have a couple others on they're site as 1st year or antique, (according to George Madis book) lots 36-37

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May 21, 2020
1:41 am
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Henry Mero said
They have a couple others on they're site as 1st year or antique, (according to George Madis book) lots 36-37  

I can’t believe RIA is still using Madis as their reference. No disrespect to George & his contribution to Winchester but RIA has just lost any business I might of pursued. I can only think of one reason why they would use inaccurate information in 2020...

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May 21, 2020
11:32 pm
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Is this the Winchester we are talking about  I copyed and pasted this from RIA

Desirable First Year Production Antique Winchester Model 1894 Lever Action Rifle
Estimate Price: $2,000 - $3,000
Item Views
654
Item Interest
Average
Serial #
Serial number obfuscated
Manufacturer
Winchester
Model
1894
Type
Rifle
Gauge
32-40 WCF
Catalog Page
31
Barrel
26 inch octagon
Finish
blue
Grip
 
Stock
walnut
Class
Antique
Rating
 
Description
Manufactured in 1894. The barrel has Lyman beaded blade front and elevation adjustable buckhorn rear sights and is marked with the two-line address followed by "32-40" on the top. The upper tang is marked with the three-line model/patent date information. Smooth forearm straight grip stock with crescent buttplate.
Condition
Very good, retains 25% original blue finish, faint traces of original case colors, and strong traces of original nitre blue on the loading gate with the balance a smooth grey patina and some very light pitting on the receiver. The lightly sanded and reoiled wood is also very good with some scattered minor dings, a small notch in the comb, and a small chip in the corner of the wrist where it meets the receiver. Mechanically excellent.
 
May 22, 2020
1:34 am
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Yes, that is the Model 1894 I was referring to... serial number 11577.  it is not a "First year production" Model 1894.  It was manufactured in November, 1895 (late in the 2nd year of production).

Bert

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May 22, 2020
1:53 am
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Iam not trying to start trouble . Bare with me on this. IAM not a expert far from it and I mean that. I was on the web at DATES OF MANUFACTURE and thay put serial# 17552 to be 1894 production .Blue book of guns same thing .I know it is not first model . WHAT do I not under stand

May 22, 2020
2:01 am
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For the 1000th time. All those pages date Winchesters before actual polishing room records were found. The date your Winchester on this site is based upon the correct records. 

In addition,  a few of our members are collecting information on various Winchesters where factory records are nonexistent.  A sort of fill in the blank. 

Vince
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May 22, 2020
3:44 am
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Another thing to remember is that very few 1894’s were built in 1894. Less than 1700 were serialized so it’s likely even fewer were actually built and shipped in 1894. It’s understandable that some collectors feel that 1895 was the first year of production as it was the first FULL year of production. Understandable, but not correct, IMHO. A bit like newlyweds celebrating a six month anniversary. If a rifle has an SNA date in December 1894 but didn’t make it to the warehouse until February 1895 is it a first year production? As far as BATFE is concerned the rifle came into existence in 1894 but it wasn’t actually built into a working firearm (produced) until 1895. 

My earliest 1894 is a 38-55 second model, serial number 5310. It’s an early 1894 but it’s not a first model, not even a first year even though production started less than a year before this rifle was produced. 

 

Mike

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May 22, 2020
5:03 am
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jay94543@aol.com said
Iam not trying to start trouble . Bare with me on this. IAM not a expert far from it and I mean that. I was on the web at DATES OF MANUFACTURE and thay put serial# 17552 to be 1894 production .Blue book of guns same thing .I know it is not first model . WHAT do I not under stand  

The information you found on the web is erroneous, as it was copied from the flawed information published by George Madis more than 40-years ago.  Fjestad (Blue Book) copied that same erroneous information.  You should get in the habit of believing everything that you read on the internet!  If you are looking for a web based tool that will provide you with the accurate year of manufacture, then use the one found right here on the WACA website - https://winchestercollector.org/dates/ 

If you want to determine the exact date of manufacture, contact the Cody Firearms Museum (CFM) records office... unless you are a member, they charge a fee to get the information. https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/

As Mike alluded to, there were only 1,674 Model 1894s manufactured in the year 1894, and by the end of the year 1895, the total had only reached 14,222.

Bert

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May 22, 2020
12:56 pm
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I have a First Model 1894 # 3149 "manufactured"  in 1895. Since the receiver was made in 1894 I guess I can say that at least part of the gun was made in 1894. 

May 22, 2020
1:54 pm
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Dave K. said
I have a First Model 1894 # 3149 "manufactured"  in 1895. Since the receiver was made in 1894 I guess I can say that at least part of the gun was made in 1894.   

Dave,

The receiver on your Model 1894 was not manufactured in 1894.  Please pay attention to what I have stated several times just in this topic string... serial number 1674 was the last Model 1894 receiver manufactured in the year 1894

Your Model 1894 with serial number 3149 was manufactured on February 23, 1895, and it was received in the warehouse as a fully assembled (ready to sell) Sporting Rifle on August 13, 1895.

I have completed an extensive amount of research on the early production statistics in preparation of writing an article about the First Model 1894s.

Bert

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May 22, 2020
4:26 pm
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Looking forward to the article on the First Model, Bert. Impressed that you were able to survey so many. 

 

Mike

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May 22, 2020
4:35 pm
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Bert,

Not sure if you have this one recorded in your survey or not. Interesting that it's a three digit first year production, but not a "first model" receiver.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/866903078

Al

May 22, 2020
4:37 pm
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Sorry Bert, Please accept my apology. Were all 1894's up to #1674 First Models. I understand that some Model 1894's prior to my #3149 were Second Models and that some First Model receivers have been found on 1894's in the 5000+ range. When did the first Second Model receivers begin to be manufactured and the First Models cease?  My understanding is that 2000+ First Model receivers were made so if all 1894 manufactured guns up to #1674 were First Models and all the receivers made in 1894 were used up then some First Model  receivers must have been made into early 1895 and then randomly mixed in with Second Models. Is this correct? Is it not possible that some First Model receivers manufactured but not finished and not serialized in 1894 could have been used and assembled on guns made in 1895?

May 22, 2020
8:32 pm
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tionesta1 said
Bert,

Not sure if you have this one recorded in your survey or not. Interesting that it's a three digit first year production, but not a "first model" receiver.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/866903078

Al  

Al,

I did have that rifle noted in the survey, and it is actually not that odd.  The first known "second model" is serial number 510, which is a standard Take Down Sporting Rifle in 38-55.  I have (9) second model 38-55 caliber Model 1894s recorded thus far with serial numbers earlier than 919.

Bert

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May 22, 2020
8:49 pm
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Dave K. said
Sorry Bert, Please accept my apology. Were all 1894's up to #1674 First Models. I understand that some Model 1894's prior to my #3149 were Second Models and that some First Model receivers have been found on 1894's in the 5000+ range. When did the first Second Model receivers begin to be manufactured and the First Models cease?  My understanding is that 2000+ First Model receivers were made so if all 1894 manufactured guns up to #1674 were First Models and all the receivers made in 1894 were used up then some First Model  receivers must have been made into early 1895 and then randomly mixed in with Second Models. Is this correct? Is it not possible that some First Model receivers manufactured but not finished and not serialized in 1894 could have been used and assembled on guns made in 1895?  

Dave,

The first "second model" Model 1894 receiver I have verified thus far is serial number 510.  So, and in answer to your first question, the answer is a definitive No, they were not.  Keep in mind that the first Model 1894 in caliber 32-40 was serial number 545, and none of the early 32-40s were manufactured with a first model receiver frame.

There was not a clear cut production change from the first model to the second model receiver frames.  It was a long drawn out transition that began at serial number 510 (the first serial numbered second model receiver frame), and ended at serial number 7471 (the highest known serial number on a first model).  That relatively long transition period is part of the reason it is taking so long to gather all of the information I want for the article.  The research survey I have in progress (serial range 1 - 7999) currently has (432) total entries, and of that number, (217) are first models. My current estimate is that just over 3,000 first models were made, but that it only based on current survey numbers.  I really could use some help finding more of the early serial numbers (pre 8000).

Bert

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