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Daniel Wesson: Engraver for Winchester and T J Stafford
November 20, 2018
8:18 pm
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As referenced in another thread, I recently purchased (quite cheaply) an engraved T J Stafford pistol, these being produced in New Haven in the 1860's.  The engraving looks quite similar to those found on Winchester rifles of the same era, and since both Winchester rifles and T J Stafford pistols were produced in New Haven, it stands to reason the same engraver(s) were used by both firms.  It was suggested I contact Herbert Houze, and so I did...

With his permission, I am able to state that an engraver was used by both firms and his name was Daniel Wesson, no relation to the Daniel Baird Wesson of Smith & Wesson fame.

Once I receive the pistol, photographs shall be forthcoming, and the striking similarity can be observed.

November 21, 2018
1:40 am
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How does one upload a download?  It states to press the start button once uploaded.  I am lost.  An interesting article about this Daniel SMITH Wesson, by Herbert House.  05 Nov 1831 - 25 Dec 1908.

November 21, 2018
2:14 am
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Is this the one you were trying to upload?  I just pushed the "button" and it uploaded. Laugh

Also, Herb's name is Houze (with a "Z").

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

November 21, 2018
2:20 am
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Yes that's it.  I type in Houze and spell check changes it to House.

Photographs forthcoming.  Stafford pistol is in transit.

November 21, 2018
2:22 am
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I completely understand the stupid spell check problem and really looking forward to seeing your VERY rare pistol!

Thanks for posting.

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

November 27, 2018
7:48 pm
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November 27, 2018
7:52 pm
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I couldn't figure out how to attach photographs and type in the same post.  In the post above are photographs of this pistol, engraving by Daniel Smith Wesson circa 1861.  Time and place works, both T J Stafford and Winchester were in business and producing engraved firearms at the start of the 1860's.

Feel free to comment, especially relative to the style of engraving observed on Winchesters at that time.

November 28, 2018
12:32 am
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Beautiful pistol!  Thanks for posting the photos!

Best Regards,

WACA Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

December 7, 2018
3:56 am
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I have a Henry rifle, serial 9949, that Herb Houze has identified as being engraved by Daniel Smith Wesson, factory engraver for the New Haven Arms Company from 1860-1862, and then back again 1864-1865. Herb made this identification in person when I took the rifle to Cody. Here is one of his comments: "The engraving is of a type that is seen on a few Henrys and early 1866 Winchesters.  The key identifying feature is the presence of the open punch dot ornament bordering the scrollwork." Herb also suggests that most of the engraving he has seen attributed to Hoggson was done by Wesson. A comparison of my gun to so-called Hoggson-engraved guns shows many similarities.

I sent a photo of the silver plate on the buttstock to Vonnie at The Horse Soldier for research on Major H.W. Wheeler. She did not find him in Federal data, and she suggested he was probably an Artillery Officer in a State Militia. Herb Houze remembers once seeing an engraved pistol for H.W. Wheeler in the Connecticut Militia years ago. Henry-right.jpgImage EnlargerHenry-left.jpgImage EnlargerDSC_3136.jpgImage EnlargerScreen-Shot-2018-12-06-at-19.53.28.pngImage Enlarger

December 7, 2018
9:18 pm
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Thank you for the post regarding your Henry rifle.  The open punch dot pattern you describe is strongly suggestive the same person engraved both firearms--e.g., Daniel Smith Wesson.

December 9, 2018
1:42 am
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Michael & Mecca,

i have barely broken the ice on engraving, but it was my impression that most the engravers of the 1860’s were not necessarily “in house” engravers, with their work showing on multiple companies arms. I had read Hoggson was, but the others had their shops outside the factories doing engraving too, and possibly after the guns left the factories, either from the arms companies, or by the customer independently.

Any light you can shed on this is appreciated.

 Bill

December 10, 2018
1:41 am
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to Blueliner: I asked Herb Houze about this, and his reply "Small companies, such as Stafford relied on independent engravers but major concerns engaged them full-time since there were always orders for decorated arms."

December 10, 2018
11:22 am
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Onefish
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If that Henry is done by Wesson or Hoggson, why does it have the Ulrichs makers marks and imaging art on it?

December 10, 2018
11:47 am
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Onefish
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BTW the Stafford pistol engraving is done by John and Herman Ulrich. Makers marks clearly visible. Take a really good look at your pictures. I have at this point only spent a few minutes on them. I am sure you can find multiple Ulrich marks throughout the engraving of both firearms. The Henry is extraordinary!!  Most excellent image on receiver left.

Anyone else seeing this? Anyone?

                           

December 10, 2018
11:17 pm
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Onefish said
BTW the Stafford pistol engraving is done by John and Herman Ulrich. Makers marks clearly visible. Take a really good look at your pictures. I have at this point only spent a few minutes on them. I am sure you can find multiple Ulrich marks throughout the engraving of both firearms. The Henry is extraordinary!!  Most excellent image on receiver left.

Anyone else seeing this? Anyone?

                             

Your going to have to be a bit more specific, as I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see what your referring to.

Sincerely,

Maverick
            

December 10, 2018
11:37 pm
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Herbert Houze stated the Stafford revolver is the work of Daniel Smith Wesson.  Believe me, I wish it could be attributed to the more famous Ulrichs.

December 10, 2018
11:46 pm
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IMG_1150.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1153.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1155.JPGImage Enlarger

to Onefish and Maverick:  I don't see any marks indicating any of the Ulrichs. What marks or indications do you see? Here are some more photos. The dark area around the engraving is the tarnished silver plating. I have never polished it.

I'm sending this gun to the Las Vegas show in January with Glen Mattox.

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December 11, 2018
12:54 am
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Michael,

Sent you a PM

Bill

December 12, 2018
11:29 pm
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Michael Carrick said
IMG_1150.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1153.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1155.JPGImage Enlarger

to Onefish and Maverick:  I don't see any marks indicating any of the Ulrichs. What marks or indications do you see? Here are some more photos. The dark area around the engraving is the tarnished silver plating. I have never polished it.

I'm sending this gun to the Las Vegas show in January with Glen Mattox.  

I'm not seeing any marks that I would contribute to any of the three Ulrich brothers. That is why I asked for more specifics!

Sincerely,

Maverick

December 13, 2018
11:34 pm
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Hi Folks;

    After enlarging the photos of the MRCVS pistol manufactured by T.J. Stafford several things about the IRON portion of the firearm becomes obvious, at least to my eye. First, note that the unengraved part of the barrel section is corroded not flat and smooth while the bright and shiny "stippled" background dots and cuts of the scroll work do not seem to have any corrosion in them what so ever. Second, examine the Hoggson/Wesson engraved Henry as opposed to both the style and quality of the engraving on the Stafford pistol. One can see the difference in both smoothness of cuts, placement of the "Finishing Dot", and the difference in the background punch dot stippling. Hoggson, I don't know about D. Wesson, almost never punched one dot over another. Also note that the finishing dot and cuts at the end of the scrolls on both the pistol and the Henry are much different. Neither the Stafford or the Henry were engraved by a member of the Ulrich family, not while sober anyway. In my opinion for what it's worth, which may not be much, these firearms, the Stafford and the Henry, were engraved by different engravers. Neither Hoggson or an Ulrich did the engraving. THIS FOR BLUELINER. As for "Factory Engravers" working on the Winchester firearms in the mid to late 19th century, Winchester did have engravers on staff. The most famous being Hoggson, Conrad, John, and Herman Ulrich. Winchester also employed "Contract" engravers at various times or at the request of their customers. Gustov Younge, L. D. Nimschke were amongst the most famous of the contract engravers that did work on Winchesters at that time. Even Colt didn't have Gustov Younge on its payroll. He had a "Shop" at the Colt factory, but was if fact a "Contract" engraver working for Colt, and not an employee. Anyway sorry if I've taken up to much time here.

Apache (formally ID #2576 now #11040

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