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Gary;
Forgive me, but I didn’t know that there were two John Ulrichs engraving for Winchester. Who was the “Younger John Ulrich”? All this information that you’ve given is great, as it contains new information that I think was unknown before your research. I’m curious though. Where can I find this information? Can I find it at the National Archives, the remaining Winchester Records in Cody, such as they may still exist? Are the 2 books written by Wheeler available in reprint or whatever? I love doing my own research and if you would be so kind as to how and where I can follow up on this “New” information you’ve presented here I would greatly appreciate it as I’m sure would the rest of the WACA community.
Thank you for this, Apache
Gary & Apache,
Was the gun originally engraved by Hoggson or Wesson ? And second, did Ulrich do additional engraving and do the presentation plate too ?
Bill
apache said
To Onefish, and all other interested parties;I looked up Gary Gianotti and read and examined under magnification the pictures in his articles. Most interesting! I did see what could be interpeted as initial letters depicting a possible HU, JU, E, 4, CU. I also saw what could also be described as a 3, 9, backwards F, not only one number 6 as described, but actually three number 6s and one 9. However within the same photo of the Winchester depicting the initials HU and JU there was also the letter M and a reverse E. I also saw what is described as Herman Ulrich’s all seeing eye, this carved in a Steer’s Head on a pair of Colt grips. I guess all these numbers, letters, eyes etc could be just as depicted. However in the script Mr. Gianotti or whomever wrote it says these marks are NOT recognized by Researchers or Historians as being identifying marks as to who engraved or carved, as in the case of the Colt grips, the various firearms shown. Perhaps in time they will be, but not yet. If you try to sell a firearm, pointing out the various “Maker Marks” as described, you probably won’t get its true value.
Thank you Onefish for turning me onto Mr G’s writing and pictures, APACHE (ya ta hey)
greetings, the reversed E is a Masonic symbol. More like a number 3 that my Mason associated documented as the cross roads symbol. Go read the new find on my blog with the Roosevelt rifle that no one knew existed! You can’t engrave cooyright art with out permission back in the day! Cheers Happy Nee Year….
I do not mean this post to be overly harsh, and I’m not saying there aren’t some hidden marks in some engraved firearms; however, it seems like every gun I’ve ever seen with scrollwork engraving could be attributed to the Conrad Ulrich or other members of the family using these methods given there are C and U shaped cuts in nearly all scrollwork engraving patterns. Some that have been attributed to them based on these marks also are clearly not of the quality of their known work. Your other posts on crosshatch marks and other Masonic “symbols” also seem suspect given many of these are simple designs used by many people who had no Masonic association. Things like calling the lines in the ear of a bull a hidden “E” when they just appear to be accent lines seems a little out there. Does it not seem a little “National Treasure” or “Da Vinci Code”-esque to think everything ever made had tons of hidden symbols all over them?
Saying “The study allows with 100% accuracy a method of identifying the actual artists who made the relic by name if the relic is not documented to an artist” is also complete non-sense. For one, all of us are fair from omniscient and infallible. You cannot 100% guarantee your method can identify all artists all the time. You do not know the marks of every artist who has ever lived for one. What if someone else copied their work? What if two individuals use very similar identifying marks? What if a maker changed their marking at different parts of the career unknown to you? Etc. Etc. Plus, what if you just happen to be wrong in your reading of a particular supposed markings? None of us can with 100% accuracy really identify much of anything let alone the absolute specific details of something from well over a century ago.
Good point. You have to start with documented works of whichever engraver you choose to identify and go from there. It is common for an engraver to use many variations of his “mark” on one piece. There should be a common database put together of different makers marks.
I collect Ulrich works and have been studying their artwork and working on interpretations of such for sometime now, so I will only speak of the family Ulrich when I say there is more than just their initials worked into the engraving or rifle in general. There are also “rubbings” or enhancements of supposed tarnish or discoloration on the metal and some times very extensive imaging on the wood. Generally it takes certain light manipulations to bring them out. This is a secondary form of embellishment that I believe would be near impossible to reproduce.
When you start seeing the same mark oversight and over its hard to dismiss as random. When they are combined with the imaging art that uses similar images from rifle to rifle it starts to get near impossible to counterfeit and easier to identify to particular artists.
Feel free to email me for some examples at; [email protected]
apache said
To Onefish, and all other interested parties;I looked up Gary Gianotti and read and examined under magnification the pictures in his articles. Most interesting! I did see what could be interpeted as initial letters depicting a possible HU, JU, E, 4, CU. I also saw what could also be described as a 3, 9, backwards F, not only one number 6 as described, but actually three number 6s and one 9. However within the same photo of the Winchester depicting the initials HU and JU there was also the letter M and a reverse E. I also saw what is described as Herman Ulrich’s all seeing eye, this carved in a Steer’s Head on a pair of Colt grips. I guess all these numbers, letters, eyes etc could be just as depicted. However in the script Mr. Gianotti or whomever wrote it says these marks are NOT recognized by Researchers or Historians as being identifying marks as to who engraved or carved, as in the case of the Colt grips, the various firearms shown. Perhaps in time they will be, but not yet. If you try to sell a firearm, pointing out the various “Maker Marks” as described, you probably won’t get its true value.
Thank you Onefish for turning me onto Mr G’s writing and pictures, APACHE (ya ta hey)
I looked myself up and learned I was born and raised in new haven county where this history originated! How about you?
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