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Austin, That is one fine gun, It has my gold seal! I thought about that gun several times during the course of this thread, Your gun is a one gun collection, it has honesty, condition, rarity, and it letters clean. Thanks for sharing. T/R
TR said
Austin, That is one fine gun, It has my gold seal! I thought about that gun several times during the course of this thread, Your gun is a one gun collection, it has honesty, condition, rarity, and it letters clean. Thanks for sharing. T/R
I agree completely – that rifle is breathtaking.
Austin, On some guns you see things that document their originality and remove all doubt. Your gun has the chatter marks on the screw heads and the factory machine cuts on the back off the bolt to accommodate the Lyman Windgauge Sight. The first goes to condition and the second confirms the letter. Is it for sale? T/R
Bert H. said
Austin,What is the barrel diameter (opposing flats) just forward of the frame ring? I suspect that the extra heavy barrels Winchester used on the Model 1886 rifles were reworked Model 1885 No. 4 or No. 5 barrels.
Bert
Austin said
Bert H. said
Austin,What is the barrel diameter (opposing flats) just forward of the frame ring? I suspect that the extra heavy barrels Winchester used on the Model 1886 rifles were reworked Model 1885 No. 4 or No. 5 barrels.
Bert
Bert, Dimensions as follows:Muzzle – 1.095″Forend cap – 1.157″Breech – 1.196″AustinStandard .50 caliber muzzle comparison:
Thanks!
The dimensions you provided indicate that it is larger than a No. 5 barrel, but not quite as large as a No. 6 barrel, which tells me that Winchester specially made the barrel for your rifle. It would be interesting to measure several Model 1886 extra-heavy barrels to see if they are consistent in size.
For the Model 1885, a No. 5 barrel has a nominal the breech diameter of 1.16, and it tapers to 1.12 (30-inch barrel). The No. 6 barrels (very rare by the way) have been observed to be 1.245 (breech) and taper to 1.20 at the muzzle (again on a 30-inch barrel).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I wonder if Amoskeag would provide us with the measurements of their .50-100? I would be fascinated to compare them to the measurements of Austin’s rifle. Anyone have a connection there?
Bert, My 45-90 32″ letters Ex Hvy 15#; measures 1.140″ breech and 1.060″ muzzle, barrel sticks out past frame. I also have a Dlx 45-90 26″ letters Ex Hvy ; measures 1.060″ breech and .985″ muzzle, barrel does not stick past frame. I tried getting a handle on barrel size years ago, everyone was different, sometimes a hvy was larger than a ex hvy, ex hvy varied greatly. The same thing in 73s and 76s hvy and extra hvy. When Mike Ginn sold all his 50cal 86’s and 76’s at Tulsa, I looked at all of them, no pattern. Mike did the 86 50s at one show and the 76 50s at another, tables full of 50s. I wish I had money then. I think the takedown might be the largest barreled 86 I’ve seen, just by the picture. But it doesn’t letter. T/R
TR said
Bert, My 45-90 32″ letters Ex Hvy 15#; measures 1.140″ breech and 1.060″ muzzle, barrel sticks out past frame. I also have a Dlx 45-90 26″ letters Ex Hvy ; measures 1.060″ breech and .985″ muzzle, barrel does not stick past frame. I tried getting a handle on barrel size years ago, everyone was different, sometimes a hvy was larger than a ex hvy, ex hvy varied greatly. The same thing in 73s and 76s hvy and extra hvy. When Mike Ginn sold all his 50cal 86’s and 76’s at Tulsa, I looked at all of them, no pattern. Mike did the 86 50s at one show and the 76 50s at another, tables full of 50s. I wish I had money then. I think the takedown might be the largest barreled 86 I’ve seen, just by the picture. But it doesn’t letter. T/R
Thanks, and Very interesting…
Apparently, Winchester did not attempt to standardize the different barrel sizes made for the Model 1886 (like they did for the Model 1885). The infrequency of a special order Model 1886 “heavy” or “extra heavy” barrel no doubt was the reason for the non-standardization.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, The late Walt Hiemsteen, (last name misspelled) from Calif. had one of the biggest hvy barrel collections, he disagreed with Madis that hvy and ex hvy where different. His theory was the individual recording the ledger sometimes wrote hvy and sometimes ex hvy. We got along good until I out bid him at an auction on an Ex Hvy 50 cal 76. Nice guy! T/R
TR said
Bert, The late Walt Hiemsteen, (last name misspelled) from Calif. had one of the biggest hvy barrel collections, he disagreed with Madis that hvy and ex hvy where different. His theory was the individual recording the ledger sometimes wrote hvy and sometimes ex hvy. We got along good until I out bid him at an auction on an Ex Hvy 50 cal 76. Nice guy! T/R
I knew Walt (Hallstein) quite well, and I agree with his assertion in regards to how it was recorded in the ledger records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Walt passed away 7 years ago this month. I remember one time we were in Denver and he bought a 76 for $75,000. Sold it soon after for $100,000. I used to tell him the reason he wore the big hat was to cover his horns.
cwachter said
Walt passed away 7 years ago this month. I remember one time we were in Denver and he bought a 76 for $75,000. Sold it soon after for $100,000. I used to tell him the reason he wore the big hat was to cover his horns.
I like that. He was good to me, kept me from committing financial suicide by gun several times. He gave me his advice freely and I listened. T/R
That’s an outstanding rifle Austin.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
steve004 said
Bob – I appreciate your thoughts. They are quite logical. However, we’re still left with casting about with some sort of consistent explanation as to missing data in the ledgers. And, maybe there isn’t one. Random errors, oversights, poor attention to detail, an attitude where writing most of the information was felt to be, “good enough” and so on. Worker errors happen. The third leading cause of death in the United States is medical errors. I can think of dozens of examples I know of where pharmacists have made errors (e.g. wrong medication, wrong dosage, wrong count).
Returning to this .50 caliber ’86. I know most of us wish there were more photos of the barrel markings. In reviewing the available photos again, I see a portion of the caliber marking is shown. That looked right as rain to me.
Let me ask this, the cheekpiece stock is also not mentioned in the ledger. Does anyone doubt the originality of the cheekpiece feature? I can’t imagine how it couldn’t be – given the matching assembling number on the top tang of the stock and on the inner receiver tang, and given the cast-off and drop dimensions of the stock. For me, this is proof the ledger is in error (i.e. omission) on one point for sure. Which (for me) lends credibility to the heavy barrel also being an omission.
steve004
It is not uncommon at all for special order Winchesters to have some features that are missing from a Cody Letter or in the Factory Ledgers. Seen it time an time again. If majority of the special order features are listed, using good judgement on the remaining features should be sufficient to determine originality.
To Everyone Else
For the most part I wholeheartedly agree with your stances on collecting Winchesters that Letter. However, for the Winchesters that are out there that can no longer be lettered as the original records are now lost, there are plenty of nice genuine Winchesters out there to collect. Especially when you look at the amount of model 94s that will not letter.
Or if you want you can just pass on them, and I’ll keep snatching them up. 
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I’m with Maverick. A recent conversation I had with Jessie caused me to go through all of my paperwork and order 4 letters. I did this to support the Cody Museum not to verify the correctness of the guns. If you only bought guns that would letter you could never own a Henry or most of the early 66’s. I have a winder musket and my grandfathers 90 that won’t letter. I am still on the hunt for an antique 1897 though.
In sizing up the Amoskeag .50-100, first off, my belief is that it is, “right.” And even if it is not right, I believe it is still, “right.” What I mean by that is given the provenance, I don’t think fakers and prevaricators have had their hands on this rifle. Even if the extra heavy barrel was not on the rifle when it originally left the factory, whatever happened was done very long ago (at time of actual use) and done honestly. Perhaps the rifle was shipped back to the factory for a heavier barrel and that didn’t get recorded in the ledger. Perhaps the Stevens connection to a past owner produced a barrel change. Whatever happened, I believe it is clear it is a Winchester barrel. As stated, there are some alternate possibilities but I don’t think the people we despise the most, had their way with this rifle. Honesty vs. fakery is no small distinction in my book.
steve004 said
http://www.amoskeagauction.com/117/48.phpAnyone see some flies that will help me no pine away for this one? I sure like the caliber.
Anyone know what it sold for?
steve004 said
Anyone know what it sold for?
I believe the hammer price was $42,500. If you add the buyer’s premium and assorted fees, makes it close to the “Big 50”, pardon the pun. 🙂
Mark
Sold for $43,000 I think. The buyer was WACA member Randy Saba. You can probably lay your eyes on it in Tulsa and again in Denver as well as Cody.
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
On the topic of heavy barreled M1886’s, here is one that is coming up for auction. The museum letter is included. I note it specifies, “Extra heavy.” You can see in the photos the barrel flats are below the receiver ring. This example continues to support our conclusion that when it came to the M1886, there was not a consistent method used to describe the barrel weights.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1031/24/winchester-1886rifle-4590-wcf
This is an interesting rifle but a bit too rough for me.
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