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http://www.amoskeagauction.com/117/48.php
Anyone see some flies that will help me no pine away for this one? I sure like the caliber.
I’m wondering what others thoughts are regarding the two prominent features on this rifle: that are not noted in the factory ledger. Specifically, the cheekpiece buttstock and the heavy barrel. It seems I have seen several examples where rifles that have a multitude of special order features, do not have them all recorded in the ledger. It also seems the space available in the ledgers was limited. Was this a factor? Did some rifles just have so many features to list and as space was short, they didn’t list them all? Did the employee doing the records simply pick what he could fit in? All the information that described the stock dimensions took up plenty of space. Surely that employee never dreamed of magnitude of the consequences of what he was doing, when over 100 years later, fussy and neurotic collectors would be agonizing over his pen strokes. 😉
How satisfied are others as to the heavy barrel and cheekpiece stock being original to the rifle at time of shipment? I suppose it is obvious the buttstock it correct given the special order drop and cast off. So, the main remaining question for me is the heavy barrel. Oops, and the “factory customized” buttplate where the heel has been, “softened”?
I do note there is no, “return and repair” notation in the Cody letter.
What’s the level of appeal of this rifle to others?
Having never seen a cast winchester stock I can’t give an opinion.
But would like to hear from others if Winchester bent the tang like that.
I can’t figure out how you get the tight fit on a curved tang.
Would make putting a tang sight on it pretty interesting.
Again my comments should not be taken as saying yea or nay just try to learn somthing about an unusual special order.
Dominic
Winchester did bend the tangs if they need a cast off and if a tang sight was put on by Winchester the sight would have a matching bend. As to the barrel I see its actually sticks up beyond the receiver which is rare, which makes me think the barrel is heavier than the standard extra heavy. When they put a barrel like that on they sometimes were not described as heavy or extra heavy in the ledger but they listed the guns weight.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
January 26, 2011
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I would lean towards this rifle being correct through and through. The Ex. heavy barrel had to have the fore-end wood shaped just for it. The buttstock looks similar to the other examples that have surfaced on this forum. There has been an 1886, 1887, and 1892 with cast offs, if I recall. The butt plate could have been modified after it left the factory, but that doesn’t bother me at all. This is an outstanding, unique, one of a kind 1886 that should be more than appealing to any of us. I’m not too comfortable taking a second mortgage on the house to buy it though. Awesome rifle, for sure.
~Gary~
I am always spooked with Winchesters that do not match the letters, especially one like this that has major changes/additions that are not mentioned. That being said, I wonder why the seller did not get a more current letter that could bring to light some of the extras? Just my take. Peter
Peter,
A newer letter will not show any additional information unless it was missed the first time. What I would of like to seen is a copy of the ledger entry.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Any opinions on my speculation that the very large number of special order features was a factor in why they weren’t all recorded (in that small space) of the ledger? I especially agree and I would like to see the ledger entry on this one. I too, am struck by the size of that barrel.
Steve,
I’ve seen all levels of guns that did not letter correctly and I don’t think its a space issue. . I’ve seen guns with 2 page letters and they somehow figured out where to write it all. The possibilities are a mistake by the person entering it in the ledger, missed by the person at Cody making out the letter, it was returned later and the barrel was changed or It was changed by a gun smith outside of the factory which I would say is a slim chance given the amount of work needed to be done. I wish they would have more and better pictures to see the barrel.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Very interesting Model 1886 Rifle !! I believe that it is perfectly original, and that it is definitely a “one-of-a-kind” rifle. The consignor (seller) states that he examined the records at Cody, and that no mention of the Swiss cheek or extra heavy barrel is present in the records. Why that information was omitted is a question that cannot be answered, but it is my opinion that it was unintentionally omitted by the person who originally recorded it. If I had a spare $50K in my account, I would make a run at it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I think “ledger space” may have sometimes been the issue when a particular feature is not listed but maybe the employee making the entry just did not note everything not knowing 100 plus years later guys like us would be looking at every detail. Here is an example on a 86 which I have (109591). Note there is not one spot in the ledger space where anything else could be written – the gun is absolutely correct but the ledger does not mention the shotgun butt even though other stock features are mentioned.
I have a 86 in 45-90 that letters “32” octagon extra heavy barrel, weight 15 lbs.” It’s barrel corners stick above the receiver and are beveled just like a big barrel Sharps. That’s not common but I have seen other guns like that. What is uncommon is an extra heavy not mentioned on the letter. The Cody records are shipping room records, you would think they would notice the weight. If I was buying I would look closely at barrel markings and how the fore arm cap was machined. The die that marked that barrel should have marked a lot of other barrels during that time period. A 10X magnifier answers those kind of questions. T/R
The original owner of this 86 owned a company in Chicopee Falls, Mass. and sold his company to the owner of Stevens Arms also of Chicopee Falls in 1900. It’s possible he had Stevens work on his gun in town. It’s also possible that he ordered a barrel from Winchester and Stevens or someone who worked at Stevens did the work. A lot of gun talent in Chicopee Falls in those days. This guy did not live in Left Field Arkansas. Neat gun, I like it but no letter no big money! T/R
Who blued the receiver, it was shipped cased. Maybe Winchester? I have a Browning by Stevens shot gun made in the 30’s with the same color blue. No letter no big money. T/R
T/R…only because I am unaware, why do you say it was shipped cased? Peter
Eagle, All 86’s were standard case colored until about 122,000 S/N, then blue. The letters do not mention finish unless non standard. I personally have owned many 86’s in the 100,000 to 119,000 S/N range, all did not mention finish and all were cased. From the pictures I see dull gray blue giving way to case under the blue. This was a Stevens style finish. Just a guess. Blue finish not mentioned in the letter. It could have been returned to Winchester and refinished but it’s not in the ledger, so maybe the late 20’s, but the colors wrong, maybe it’s just a poor picture. T/R
I stand corrected, in the Pirkle book page 29 he says case is standard below 122,000 s/n for standard frame and 90,000 for takedown frames. I have not owned any take downs in that serial range. Madis says 122,000 with the exception of takedown feature 80,000. With that said, not listing it on the letter means blue. T/R
Imho, this rifle is 100% Winchester as shipped. I have over a hundred factory letters on various rifles and carbines that I’ve owned in the past 50 years. Many going back to the mid 1960’s, when Tom Hall was doing the research in New Haven. As collectors, we all want our guns to “letter” all the way. Truth is, that is wishfull thinking and in some cases, we’re just forced to face reality and realize that not everything was recorded. The recorders were for the most part younger women, who never considered that the info they were recording would have any importance 10 years after the fact, let alone 100 years later. Again, the recordings are not always complete. Some collectors literally live and breathe the guns they collect. I did this by studying closely, every item I’ve ever collected. If you look at, touch and even shoot enough of these guns, you’ll probably know if they’re real or not. At some point, you just have to trust your gut. If you question everything, you won’t be a collector of anything.
Burt Humphrey said
I’ve got to ask about that rear sight! Just how is it used? I’ve never seen a square sight.
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
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