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TR said
Who blued the receiver, it was shipped cased. Maybe Winchester? I have a Browning by Stevens shot gun made in the 30’s with the same color blue. No letter no big money. T/R
Winchester blued it. Take Down Model 1886 rifles were blued as standard, regardless of the serial number. Madis and Pirkle were in error in this regard. If you study Winchester’s literature of that era (their catalogs), they clearly stated that Take Down Model 1886 rifles were only available with blued receiver frames.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert, it’s clear to me now all 86 takedowns were blued. Would it be correct to say 86 takedown’s were first listed in the April 1894 catalog? 1894 started with s/n 83,262 according to the Madis Book, maybe that’s how they came up with the number. T/R
TR said
Thanks Bert, it’s clear to me now all 86 takedowns were blued. Would it be correct to say 86 takedown’s were first listed in the April 1894 catalog? 1894 started with s/n 83,262 according to the Madis Book, maybe that’s how they came up with the number. T/R
Yes, that is correct. Winchester first listed the Take Down Model 1886 in the April 1894 catalog. Why it was not in the June 1893 catalog is a mystery to me, as the Take Down system was patented in February 1893. I do not know what the serial number was/is for the first Model 1886 Take Down, but I would expect it to be in the mid to upper 70,000 range.
Madis was off the mark with serial number 83262 being the first one in the year 1894. It was actually manufactured in July of 1893.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I would like to respectfully disagree with the statement, “At some point, you just have to trust your gut. If you question everything, you won’t be a collector of anything.” I know a number of collectors who ask a lot of questions about Winchesters they might be interested in and don’t like to buy letterable guns that don’t letter. I am one of them, and would not say my small collection, or their collections are nothing. We just think differently and don’t want to explain later about why the gun does not letter. It’s easier for me to just collect one that letters in the first place, and then I will never have to worry about it or explain it. Just my take of course, Peter
I would not doubt that it would be correct. The barrel has got to be at least 1 and 1/2″ diameter at the receiver.
James
I have very much appreciated and enjoyed the knowledge, opinions and perspectives shared. I hope it continues. On the topic of a rifle, “lettering” many collectors have lost sleep mulling over small but important details. Regarding the .50 under discussion, I will confess I would be bothered to spend the kind of money this will bring, and not have the extra heavy barrel mentioned on the letter.
I think trusting one’s gut is unavoidable on those pieces in serial number ranges where factory records don’t exist. At least with those rifles, the debate is based on the piece itself. Where letters get involved, the speculation and debate on why a detail is not present, or what a, “return and repair” means, etc. rarely results in consensus. As I write this, I recall that the Marlin factory records also routinely recorded special order features but it was also common that they would not record the presence of factory engraving. Now there’s a source of frustration for many a collector.
January 26, 2011
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Bert H. said
Yes, that is correct. Winchester first listed the Take Down Model 1886 in the April 1894 catalog. Why it was not in the June 1893 catalog is a mystery to me, as the Take Down system was patented in February 1893. I do not know what the serial number was/is for the first Model 1886 Take Down, but I would expect it to be in the mid to upper 70,000 range.
Madis was off the mark with serial number 83262 being the first one in the year 1894. It was actually manufactured in July of 1893.
Bert
Bert,
John Madl’s survey notes #73,3XX as being the first take-down. Seems a bit early, but I’m sure John had good reason to make note of it.
~Gary~
January 26, 2011
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win4575 said
Imho, this rifle is 100% Winchester as shipped. I have over a hundred factory letters on various rifles and carbines that I’ve owned in the past 50 years. Many going back to the mid 1960’s, when Tom Hall was doing the research in New Haven. As collectors, we all want our guns to “letter” all the way. Truth is, that is wishfull thinking and in some cases, we’re just forced to face reality and realize that not everything was recorded. The recorders were for the most part younger women, who never considered that the info they were recording would have any importance 10 years after the fact, let alone 100 years later. Again, the recordings are not always complete. Some collectors literally live and breathe the guns they collect. I did this by studying closely, every item I’ve ever collected. If you look at, touch and even shoot enough of these guns, you’ll probably know if they’re real or not. At some point, you just have to trust your gut. If you question everything, you won’t be a collector of anything.
Well said, Rick.
In a perfect collecting world, we would have complete record sets for all models, and the ledgers would have every detail spelled out. Unfortunately, this is far from what we are presented with. There’s nothing wrong with only buying 100% letterable guns, as this is the safest bet. What I have found, and learned from seasoned collectors like Rick, is we are more likely to miss out on some very rare and sometimes spectacular examples if we keep our letter matching blinders on. I’ve seen some pretty awesome single gun displays at Cody with rifles that don’t exactly match the ledger. One friend of mine, in particular, never cease’s to amaze us with the crazy rare examples he comes up with. To each his own, as long as we are all comfortable with our purchases.
Like Bert said, If had a spare $50k laying around, I’d make a run at it too. Great 1886.
~Gary~
steve004 said
I have very much appreciated and enjoyed the knowledge, opinions and perspectives shared. I hope it continues. On the topic of a rifle, “lettering” many collectors have lost sleep mulling over small but important details. Regarding the .50 under discussion, I will confess I would be bothered to spend the kind of money this will bring, and not have the extra heavy barrel mentioned on the letter.I think trusting one’s gut is unavoidable on those pieces in serial number ranges where factory records don’t exist. At least with those rifles, the debate is based on the piece itself. Where letters get involved, the speculation and debate on why a detail is not present, or what a, “return and repair” means, etc. rarely results in consensus. As I write this, I recall that the Marlin factory records also routinely recorded special order features but it was also common that they would not record the presence of factory engraving. Now there’s a source of frustration for many a collector.
Absolutely agree with the “letter” bit, especially with the way the climate has become on such matters it’s best to get a pass here or not by at all, under such circumstances.
James
Interesting conversation. I agree with many of the comments. I would add that a gun having a factory letter that is exactly correct to it is nice but we all know there are plenty of guns that have correct letters and have been worked on or complete overhauls. That’s we’re trusting your gut comes in.
Here’s a heavy-barreled M1886 up for sale. The seller notes there is a Museum letter with the rifle but there is no mention of the heavy barrel in the letter. Given the condition, it surely appears that the barrel has been mated to that receiver since the beginning of time.
Here’s a brain storm speculation: there was mention that it was often young females entering the specifications into the ledger. Perhaps they thought their assigned task with regard to barrels was to note the configuration (i.e. octagon, round or part-round; and the length if different from standard). Perhaps they (some) weren’t necessarily tuned into the weight of the barrel. And, there wasn’t a reference point like the single shots rifles (e.g “1” through “5”).
Here’s a .45-90 with a 32 inch full octagon extra heavy barrel. And we can see that it letters as such – with an extra heavy barrel. What strikes me is how much heavier the .50-100 barrel under discussion is. On this .45/90, the barrel still sits below the receiver ring. That is so far from the case on the .50-100. Just how heavy is that darn .50-100 barrel?
http://archives.collectorsfirearms.com/?category=943&subcategory=1129&page=1&category=&product=W7105
Steve,
As to the girls entering the information in to the ledger. They had to have information written down that came with the gun from the factory. No person could possibly look at a gun and tell how much drop and cast off it had or how much the engraving cost. They had to be a document that went with gun when it entered the warehouse and they copied from it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Steve,As to the girls entering the information in to the ledger. They had to have information written down that came with the gun from the factory. No person could possibly look at a gun and tell how much drop and cast off it had or how much the engraving cost. They had to be a document that went with gun when it entered the warehouse and they copied from it.
Bob
Bob – I appreciate your thoughts. They are quite logical. However, we’re still left with casting about with some sort of consistent explanation as to missing data in the ledgers. And, maybe there isn’t one. Random errors, oversights, poor attention to detail, an attitude where writing most of the information was felt to be, “good enough” and so on. Worker errors happen. The third leading cause of death in the United States is medical errors. I can think of dozens of examples I know of where pharmacists have made errors (e.g. wrong medication, wrong dosage, wrong count).
Returning to this .50 caliber ’86. I know most of us wish there were more photos of the barrel markings. In reviewing the available photos again, I see a portion of the caliber marking is shown. That looked right as rain to me.
Let me ask this, the cheekpiece stock is also not mentioned in the ledger. Does anyone doubt the originality of the cheekpiece feature? I can’t imagine how it couldn’t be – given the matching assembling number on the top tang of the stock and on the inner receiver tang, and given the cast-off and drop dimensions of the stock. For me, this is proof the ledger is in error (i.e. omission) on one point for sure. Which (for me) lends credibility to the heavy barrel also being an omission.
While were looking at extra-heavy barreled 86’s, here’s another:
http://merzantiques.com/photo/scarce-winchester-model-1886-extra-heavy-28-inch-half-octagon-bbl
Just listen to the speculation and questions this gun raises just because three features don’t match the letter. The next seller will face the same verbal assault when he go’s to sell it, dealers don’t like these guns and pay less for them. 20yrs ago I bought a 76 Deluxe, a screamer for 13k, I love the gun. The letter does not list barrel length on a 45-60, should be 28″ but it’s 26″. The gun is the way Winchester made it, but if I sold it I would be faced with the same speculation and questions. I love it, will never sell it, and don’t care. If your a collector and as crazy about the gun as I was, buy it, let your estate sell it. I buy guns as a collector not investor. Tired/Retired
TR said
Just listen to the speculation and questions this gun raises just because three features don’t match the letter. The next seller will face the same verbal assault when he go’s to sell it, dealers don’t like these guns and pay less for them. 20yrs ago I bought a 76 Deluxe, a screamer for 13k, I love the gun. The letter does not list barrel length on a 45-60, should be 28″ but it’s 26″. The gun is the way Winchester made it, but if I sold it I would be faced with the same speculation and questions. I love it, will never sell it, and don’t care. If your a collector and as crazy about the gun as I was, buy it, let your estate sell it. I buy guns as a collector not investor. Tired/Retired
TR – your points are right on.
Barrels above the receiver are VERY rare. Also, a 26″ rifle with a heavy barrel is rare. Most were extra-length.
Here’s one of mine – Bob, your brother got to see this gun one year when I brought it to Sioux Falls.
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