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Quick Help: Win 1873 look original ?
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November 23, 2017 - 6:02 pm
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Wincacher said
  So, I’m guessing that the presence of serifs, or lack of them, on the “B” is irrelevant because Winchester maintained no patters here.

I would think they had a box of the different numbers and letters and if one broke or got dull they grabbed another one from the box and then the stamps were repaired and put back in the box or thrown out. But yes the letter shape can be either way.

Bob

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November 24, 2017 - 11:20 pm
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I wonder if it was never shipped. A lunch box gun, perhaps? Maybe someone’s office display or a practice gun for the custom shop? Lots of things could have (and apparently did) happen over all the years since this gun was originally completed.

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November 26, 2017 - 9:41 pm
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CJS57 said
Hard to believe the cartoonish style of the animals is Ulrich? Nothing like my Ulrich engraved Model 12 Trap that was engraved by his son.  

I’m out of my league in making an evaluation here but, although I’ve never held an Ulrich-engraved piece, I’ve seen photos of many of his engravings.  I have to agree about the “cartoonish” appearance of most of the animals and the hunter.  Just look at that bear!

BK

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Delux76
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November 27, 2017 - 12:29 am
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It’s hard for me to believe that Pauline said this gun was Ulrich engraved. I have held and inspected several Ulrich engraved guns and the quality of engraving on this gun is poor compared to any of the Ulrich’s or other winchester engravers.

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November 27, 2017 - 3:02 pm
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Delux76 said
It’s hard for me to believe that Pauline said this gun was Ulrich engraved. I have held and inspected several Ulrich engraved guns and the quality of engraving on this gun is poor compared to any of the Ulrich’s or other winchester engravers.  

The quote was:

“It is one of the more elaborate pieces I have seen in quite some time” ~ Pauline Muerrle

The quote came from the seller, who says he has a letter thus implying so.  As said before, nobody claims Pauline said all or part of of it was done by Ulrich.

I’d only believe that coming from Pauline directly. 

Bill

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January 25, 2018 - 7:48 pm
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Well, it’s turned up again.  Different seller.  If you note the original listing that started this thread – from Elephant & Castle Fine Arms – you will see it is mark sold on Gunsinternational.  It is now listed by a seller on gunbroker, who primarily takes pieces on consignment.  I find it unlikely like Elephant & Castle Fine Arms pulled it, marked it sold,  and moved it over to a consignment gunbroker seller.  This likely means someone bought and for whatever reason, quickly decided to move it.  Of interest (that we were not provided before) is the handwritten letter, now provided, ostensibly written by Pauline stating this rifle was engraved by John Ulrich.  Another point of interest to me is the fact that this is a real auction – started at a penny with no reserve.  I see it is over $15K at present and it will be of interest to see where it ends.  So gentleman – factory engraved by John Ulrich? 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/738810517

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January 25, 2018 - 8:28 pm
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Not interested in rehashing this all over again but the bidding is being driven up by 2 bidders who are “Gold” members, which I take it to be long time sellers.  What it tells me is that there is inside bidding going on to drive the price up. 

As an aside, does anyone know Ms. Muerrly or her signature.  Seems very unusual for someone’s signature to be printed.

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"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

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January 25, 2018 - 9:44 pm
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At least they are showing the letter from Pauline now. Since the gun does not letter, her letter is the most important piece of documentation. I have one of her letters at home.

Bob

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January 25, 2018 - 10:42 pm
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1873man said
At least they are showing the letter from Pauline now. Since the gun does not letter, her letter is the most important piece of documentation. I have one of her letters at home.

Bob  

I was just looking at all the photos, and just noticed Pauline’s letter.

Very important indeed. Far from an expert, but just pulled out my only 4 engraved pieces.

Two done by Pauline and two by Angelo Bee and just cant get past the level of this engraving.

Just doesn’t look right to me at all!

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January 25, 2018 - 11:41 pm
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I compared my letter to that one and the letter was written by Pauline.

Bob

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January 25, 2018 - 11:58 pm
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The strong probability is that the gun was engraved beyond Ulrich’s work.The barrel work and the forearm cap are not Ulrich work. 

Pauline Mureul comment is  “ one of the most advanced engraved Winchesters she has ever seen” .

I feel she would be in dis-favor of her name and ” letter ” showing up in the for sale pictures. 

There is a lot more story to this gun. Definitely when and why it left E&P.

JMO

Bill

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January 26, 2018 - 12:58 am
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Gentlemen, Picasso had his “Blue” period. Maybe this was done during Mr. Uhlrich’s “Blind and drunk” period? IMHO the gun looks inferior to any of his other elaborate pieces but the gun could have been so badly buffed and polished during it’s other restoration efforts that it blurs out the quality of his work and only Pauline or others with the trained eye can spot the signs of factory work? I obviously can’t dispute Pauline’s expertise on authenticating Winchester engraving but I wouldn’t own the gun for more than parts price.

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January 26, 2018 - 6:14 am
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I don’t know, Casey, but to my unpracticed eye it appears to be the work of two (or more?) different engravers. I’ve had the privilege to know one craftsman on the level of Mr. Uhlrich. He loved good single malt Scotch but would tidy up the shop, do routine repairs or even work on his son’s motorcycle if he’d imbibed a bit too much the night before. It aggravated his regular customers to no end (one in particular) but his work was well worth the wait. His son was eventually a fine ‘smith and machinist in his own right but we lost both of them way too soon.

I’m often wrong but not willing to chalk this inconsistency up to a bad day.

 

Mike

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