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Quick Help: Win 1873 look original ?
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November 20, 2017 - 10:49 pm
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I have a non-collector friend has put a deposit on this gun. I could help him avoid a big mistake if anyone can comment on any non-original options. Seller says Pauline Muerel confirms Ulrich engraving. Long time high end seller.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-antique-lever/winchester-model-1873-highly-engraved-22-short-caliber-rifle-s-n-199575b.cfm?gun_id=100911881&jsessionid=077352001EEEF38FBB2DBC6920821C99.cfusion

Any quick help appreciated or price comments.  PM me if that is a better way.

Bill

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November 20, 2017 - 11:14 pm
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Just a question from the peanut gallery here: why does an offering in this class not have a letter?

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November 20, 2017 - 11:19 pm
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Some winchester records were lost in fire, or used in furnace, so might be true.   Just trying to see. I thought the 1873 22’s were made later than 1886, as this serial number indicates,

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November 20, 2017 - 11:29 pm
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I’d certainly make a call to find out. Date on the monogram is the year following build date. Seems like seller is trying to imply factory engraving when that may not be the case. Not sure how much that matters but I’d guess it was returned for engraving and other modifications but a letter would be a first step in figuring that out.

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November 20, 2017 - 11:41 pm
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I wouldn’t even consider buying it unless I had checked how it lettered and saw the letter that Pauline would of wrote with her opinion. I would want to see if she said it was Ulrich that did the work. Even then the gun has a lot of condition issues.

Bob

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73_86cutaway.jpg

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November 21, 2017 - 12:22 am
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Red Book/PRB date appears to be late 1885. I wonder how they determined the work was done by John Ulrich. From what I’ve read all the engravers could copy the others’ styles, much like some of the “old masters’ ” paintings were actually done by students in the masters’ styles. Seems a screw or two have been replaced. Looks like the spring for the elevator is a bit tired or something else is amiss internally. Not sure how 22 short qualifies as “rare” but I guess all things are relative.

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November 21, 2017 - 12:27 am
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 The finish of the various parts, stock, barrel,  tube, and receiver, does not look original. First step is letter the gun, but even if it letters, a gun like that is easy to buy but will be a hard to sell. T/R

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November 21, 2017 - 12:48 am
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TR said
 The finish of the various parts, stock, barrel,  tube, and receiver, does not look original. First step is letter the gun, but even if it letters, a gun like that is easy to buy but will be a hard to sell. T/R  

That bothered me as well, some parts of the receiver show considerable wear while the barrel and mag tube look nearly new. Other parts appear to be somewhere in between.

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November 21, 2017 - 1:02 am
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It has the wrong stock on it as well. The butt plate use to be  a swiss butt but they cut the ends off.

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73_86cutaway.jpg

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November 21, 2017 - 1:11 am
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My impression is that it is not real.  I’m willing to be wrong, but I’d have to be proven wrong.  I would not be willing to go with someone else’s impression to change my mind.

Also, your friend is a, “non-collector”?  I’m just trying to figure out what a non-collector would be doing buying this rifle?  Surely not for speculation purposes?

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November 21, 2017 - 1:19 am
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Bill,

As others have stated… get the Cody letter. While I trust Pauline’s assessment of who engraved it, that rifle should already have a Factory letter with it.

In my opinion, the asking price is too high for the condition of the rifle.

Bert

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November 21, 2017 - 1:58 am
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Thanks folks, I’ll try to talk him out of it.

the guys rich and the gun is pretty.

also getting a hard sales pitch 

Bill

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November 21, 2017 - 2:20 am
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Hard to believe the cartoonish style of the animals is Ulrich? Nothing like my Ulrich engraved Model 12 Trap that was engraved by his son.

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November 21, 2017 - 3:49 am
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For $ 25K I would expect the seller to have better pictures – at least some taken by a $220 camera.  For that price there should be a Cody letter.  Also the wood definitely seems to have been refinished and sanded down, at the upper tang and at top of the front edge of the forearm.  The carrier also doesn’t look right.

1876-4-1.jpg

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November 21, 2017 - 3:01 pm
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Wincacher said
For $ 25K I would expect the seller to have better pictures – at least some taken by a $220 camera.  For that price there should be a Cody letter.  Also the wood definitely seems to have been refinished and sanded down, asd the upper tang and at top of the front edge of the forearm.  The carrier also doesn’t look right.  

 Great point, you hit the nail on the head. Pictures of the butt plate, barrel address, barrel caliber stamp, and upper tang markings would answer a lot of questions. T/R

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November 21, 2017 - 3:13 pm
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Bert H. said
Bill,
As others have stated… get the Cody letter. While I trust Pauline’s assessment of who engraved it, that rifle should already have a Factory letter with it.
In my opinion, the asking price is too high for the condition of the rifle.
Bert  

Bert H. said
Bill,
As others have stated… get the Cody letter. While I trust Pauline’s assessment of who engraved it, that rifle should already have a Factory letter with it.
In my opinion, the asking price is too high for the condition of the rifle.
Bert  

One of the most elaborately engraved Winchesters you will ever see” ~ Pauline Muerrel

I notice the seller quotes Pauline saying the above….not verifying it as Ulrich.

you guys are great…..i’m Thankful for you all to help me help a friend. At best, this gun is a “ work of art” not the real thing.          Bill

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November 21, 2017 - 4:38 pm
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First, I would contact Pauline and ensure that she made that comment.

Looks like platinum band at breech and gold bands at muzzle is different.

 

Just my thoughts

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November 21, 2017 - 5:53 pm
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I’ve learned to look at what is apparent and look for what ISN’T there as well. I’m a newbie collector but I’ve used this approach in my other endeavors. I suspect the seller has a Cody letter in hand in addition to the referenced letter from Ms. Muerrle but neither support the seller’s description. Most sellers of a gun in this price range would post a picture of these letters if they had them, and apparently they do. Something’s missing and I’m thinking it’s not something the seller wants a buyer to know, IMHO.

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November 21, 2017 - 8:05 pm
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 Why is there a big screw head in the front tang screw hole and why would Winchester allow a in house engraver to engrave the upper tang over the model number? T/R

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November 21, 2017 - 9:02 pm
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All good observations, gentlemen.  We’d best stop critiquing this poor specimen lest we discover it was really made in Italy by Uberti.  Laugh

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"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

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