Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Quick Help: Win 1873 look original ?
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 486
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
November 20, 2017 - 10:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I have a non-collector friend has put a deposit on this gun. I could help him avoid a big mistake if anyone can comment on any non-original options. Seller says Pauline Muerel confirms Ulrich engraving. Long time high end seller.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-antique-lever/winchester-model-1873-highly-engraved-22-short-caliber-rifle-s-n-199575b.cfm?gun_id=100911881&jsessionid=077352001EEEF38FBB2DBC6920821C99.cfusion

Any quick help appreciated or price comments.  PM me if that is a better way.

Bill

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
November 20, 2017 - 11:14 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Just a question from the peanut gallery here: why does an offering in this class not have a letter?

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 486
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
November 20, 2017 - 11:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Some winchester records were lost in fire, or used in furnace, so might be true.   Just trying to see. I thought the 1873 22’s were made later than 1886, as this serial number indicates,

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
November 20, 2017 - 11:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I’d certainly make a call to find out. Date on the monogram is the year following build date. Seems like seller is trying to imply factory engraving when that may not be the case. Not sure how much that matters but I’d guess it was returned for engraving and other modifications but a letter would be a first step in figuring that out.

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4282
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
November 20, 2017 - 11:41 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I wouldn’t even consider buying it unless I had checked how it lettered and saw the letter that Pauline would of wrote with her opinion. I would want to see if she said it was Ulrich that did the work. Even then the gun has a lot of condition issues.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
November 21, 2017 - 12:22 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Red Book/PRB date appears to be late 1885. I wonder how they determined the work was done by John Ulrich. From what I’ve read all the engravers could copy the others’ styles, much like some of the “old masters’ ” paintings were actually done by students in the masters’ styles. Seems a screw or two have been replaced. Looks like the spring for the elevator is a bit tired or something else is amiss internally. Not sure how 22 short qualifies as “rare” but I guess all things are relative.

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1710
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
November 21, 2017 - 12:27 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

 The finish of the various parts, stock, barrel,  tube, and receiver, does not look original. First step is letter the gun, but even if it letters, a gun like that is easy to buy but will be a hard to sell. T/R

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
November 21, 2017 - 12:48 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TR said
 The finish of the various parts, stock, barrel,  tube, and receiver, does not look original. First step is letter the gun, but even if it letters, a gun like that is easy to buy but will be a hard to sell. T/R  

That bothered me as well, some parts of the receiver show considerable wear while the barrel and mag tube look nearly new. Other parts appear to be somewhere in between.

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4282
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
November 21, 2017 - 1:02 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

It has the wrong stock on it as well. The butt plate use to be  a swiss butt but they cut the ends off.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4161
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
November 21, 2017 - 1:11 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

My impression is that it is not real.  I’m willing to be wrong, but I’d have to be proven wrong.  I would not be willing to go with someone else’s impression to change my mind.

Also, your friend is a, “non-collector”?  I’m just trying to figure out what a non-collector would be doing buying this rifle?  Surely not for speculation purposes?

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10726
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
November 21, 2017 - 1:19 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bill,

As others have stated… get the Cody letter. While I trust Pauline’s assessment of who engraved it, that rifle should already have a Factory letter with it.

In my opinion, the asking price is too high for the condition of the rifle.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 486
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
November 21, 2017 - 1:58 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Thanks folks, I’ll try to talk him out of it.

the guys rich and the gun is pretty.

also getting a hard sales pitch 

Bill

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 263
Member Since:
November 17, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
November 21, 2017 - 2:20 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hard to believe the cartoonish style of the animals is Ulrich? Nothing like my Ulrich engraved Model 12 Trap that was engraved by his son.

Avatar
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
November 21, 2017 - 3:49 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

For $ 25K I would expect the seller to have better pictures – at least some taken by a $220 camera.  For that price there should be a Cody letter.  Also the wood definitely seems to have been refinished and sanded down, at the upper tang and at top of the front edge of the forearm.  The carrier also doesn’t look right.

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1710
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
November 21, 2017 - 3:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Wincacher said
For $ 25K I would expect the seller to have better pictures – at least some taken by a $220 camera.  For that price there should be a Cody letter.  Also the wood definitely seems to have been refinished and sanded down, asd the upper tang and at top of the front edge of the forearm.  The carrier also doesn’t look right.  

 Great point, you hit the nail on the head. Pictures of the butt plate, barrel address, barrel caliber stamp, and upper tang markings would answer a lot of questions. T/R

Avatar
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 486
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
November 21, 2017 - 3:13 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
Bill,
As others have stated… get the Cody letter. While I trust Pauline’s assessment of who engraved it, that rifle should already have a Factory letter with it.
In my opinion, the asking price is too high for the condition of the rifle.
Bert  

Bert H. said
Bill,
As others have stated… get the Cody letter. While I trust Pauline’s assessment of who engraved it, that rifle should already have a Factory letter with it.
In my opinion, the asking price is too high for the condition of the rifle.
Bert  

One of the most elaborately engraved Winchesters you will ever see” ~ Pauline Muerrel

I notice the seller quotes Pauline saying the above….not verifying it as Ulrich.

you guys are great…..i’m Thankful for you all to help me help a friend. At best, this gun is a “ work of art” not the real thing.          Bill

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 348
Member Since:
January 24, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
November 21, 2017 - 4:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

First, I would contact Pauline and ensure that she made that comment.

Looks like platinum band at breech and gold bands at muzzle is different.

 

Just my thoughts

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4970
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
November 21, 2017 - 5:53 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I’ve learned to look at what is apparent and look for what ISN’T there as well. I’m a newbie collector but I’ve used this approach in my other endeavors. I suspect the seller has a Cody letter in hand in addition to the referenced letter from Ms. Muerrle but neither support the seller’s description. Most sellers of a gun in this price range would post a picture of these letters if they had them, and apparently they do. Something’s missing and I’m thinking it’s not something the seller wants a buyer to know, IMHO.

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1710
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
November 21, 2017 - 8:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

 Why is there a big screw head in the front tang screw hole and why would Winchester allow a in house engraver to engrave the upper tang over the model number? T/R

Avatar
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
November 21, 2017 - 9:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

All good observations, gentlemen.  We’d best stop critiquing this poor specimen lest we discover it was really made in Italy by Uberti.  Laugh

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6281
TXGunNut: 4970
Chuck: 4571
1873man: 4282
steve004: 4161
Big Larry: 2324
twobit: 2291
TR: 1710
mrcvs: 1706
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12651
Posts: 110001

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1745
Members: 8792
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation