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Production of .44-40 1892 carbines
March 15, 2019
1:02 am
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What was the total production of .44-40 1892 carbines?  They seem to show up fairly infrequently relative to carbines in other calibers; also, .44-40 rifles seem to turn up much more frequently than carbines.  I didn't think production was that uncommon.

A good .44-40 carbine is hard to find!  I am guessing folks just hold onto these!

March 15, 2019
3:44 pm
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You're right, good 44-40, s.r.c. '92,s are hard to come by, as is most s.r.c.'s. For the most part they got well used and or neglected. I know it's a lot easier to find a deluxe rifle in nice cond. with lots of finish than it is to find a like s.r.c., especially the early ones. Last year I was fortunate enough to find, and purchase a collection of 35 pieces of mostly Mod. '92 s.r.c.'s. Most of these guns are in excellent cond. The gentleman I got them from had som e of them since the 1940's and never took them out of the house. There was 5, 44-40's, two of them being trappers, a14" and a15", a China Navigation Company marked and 2 others. All but one in nice Orig. cond. with lots of finish, even the trappers. Even rarer a nice '92 musket w/bayonet in 44-40, a standard 24" oct. bbl. in25-20 that's in excellent orig. cond. with about 95% factory finish, and a beautiful deluxe '92 in 25-20 That find pretty well made My year. Now I don't know the total production of carb.'s  vs rifles but Madis says production stopped for rifles in 1931 and carbines in 1941 with total production reaching 1004067with 2/3 being rifles, so by My math that would be 334689 carbines. Michael or Bert would be the guys to answer that question better than I . What I do know is they are a treasure when You find one.                        P>S>  according to Madis 4/5 or 26775 of these were in 44-40

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March 15, 2019
4:09 pm
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Now, I believe that a very large majority of M92 carbines went to the movie industry. Beat to heck, and generally not taken care of. The 44-40 and the 38-40 used the 5 in one blanks, and I doubt the bores were ever cleaned. I have collected Winchesters in general since the late 60's and have always found the M92's in 44 to be elusive. both carbine and rifle. Also, when found in good shape, they were always out of my reach. I have 4 in my collection now, all 44's. 3 rifles and one carbine, and the carbine is the worst of the lot, and was very expensive.  Big Larry

March 15, 2019
4:45 pm
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If the production numbers are correct, is it possible that many of the 44's were shipped to other countries?  

Dominic

March 15, 2019
5:25 pm
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Oldgrayguns said
If the production numbers are correct, is it possible that many of the 44's were shipped to other countries?  

Dominic  

Of course. Many of the shorties were shipped out of the country.  Big Larry

March 15, 2019
8:56 pm
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Big Larry said
Now, I believe that a very large majority of M92 carbines went to the movie industry. Beat to heck, and generally not taken care of. The 44-40 and the 38-40 used the 5 in one blanks, and I doubt the bores were ever cleaned. I have collected Winchesters in general since the late 60's and have always found the M92's in 44 to be elusive. both carbine and rifle. Also, when found in good shape, they were always out of my reach. I have 4 in my collection now, all 44's. 3 rifles and one carbine, and the carbine is the worst of the lot, and was very expensive.  Big Larry  

My one and only 92 SRC in 44 was a movie gun marked WCCO, "Western costume company". Sure wish I could see it in an episode of Gunsmoke!IMG_1070.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_1071.JPGImage Enlarger

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March 16, 2019
2:13 am
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If you notice carefully, most of the M92 carbines on that program had rifle buttstocks, and I seriously doubt they were special order. Big Larry

March 16, 2019
7:27 pm
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Big Larry said
If you notice carefully, most of the M92 carbines on that program had rifle buttstocks, and I seriously doubt they were special order. Big Larry  

I have noticed that along with the time setting is around 1878-79 according to an episode a few day ago. A few years before carbines they use were made. 

March 16, 2019
9:20 pm
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Case in point. The Rifleman. Set in the 1870's.   Big Larry

March 17, 2019
12:25 pm
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nascar fan said

I have noticed that along with the time setting is around 1878-79 according to an episode a few day ago. A few years before carbines they use were made.   

Let's not ever let the word Hollywood, reality, and accuracy ever be considered in the same sentence!!!

Michael

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March 17, 2019
2:13 pm
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twobit said

Let's not ever let the word Hollywood, reality, and accuracy ever be considered in the same sentence!!!

Michael  

Amen twobit.  And there are several other words that could be inserted into that sentence, but that's a subject for another forum.

Charles

March 17, 2019
6:22 pm
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A few years ago Canadian Broadcasting Company produced a TV show about the Northwest Mounted Police set in the early 1870's and the officers were armed with Model 1892 carbines also. About the only TV series that seem to try for accuracy in weaponry is the British Broadcasting Company so Hollywood isn't the only producer who tends towards inaccuracy.

March 19, 2019
12:04 am
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Good morning all,

So I grabbed some coffee and did some number crunching this morning in an effort to shed some light and numbers on this discussion.  To date, I have 12,266 Model 1892/92 rifles for which I have configuration and caliber details for.  There are another 340 SN's where the only data I have is the associated caliber.   Additionally, there are another 21 SRC's which are not in the original caliber.  They have not been included in the calculations.  Of the 12,266 Model 1892/92 configurations 3,643 are SRC's which is about 30% of the total.  Of the total Model 1892/92/53/65 serial number range you have to subtract the Model 53 and 65 total production numbers to then get an estimate of the total number of 1892/92 SRC's.  Both of those production numbers have a "little fuzz" as to the accuracy also.  

The Model 53 began to be numbered in the Model 92 serial number sequence at SN 962262.  To my knowledge both rifles were produced until approximately SN 999900. After 999,900 almost the entire production is Model 65's. That is a range of 37,638 rifles.  Kirk Durstan has been surveying the Model 53, and I the Model 1892/92 rifle for just about the same stretch of time and together we have captured 851 rifles in the serial range from 962262 to 999900.  Of this number, 210, or approximately 24.5% are Model 53's.  If we gross that up to the total interval then about 9,221 model 53 have to be subtracted from the total of 999,900 Model 1892/92 rifles.  Therefore, one can calculate that 990,679 individual Model 1892/92 configurations were produced.  So.... going back to the above paragraph where I have identified 30% of the 1892/92 production as being SRC's you can then calculate that 297,203 individual SRC's were produced.

Additional coffee and a bit more number crunching showed that of the rifles" I have surveyed that 36.6% are chambered in 44 WCF.  So with a little drum roll then..... we get approximately 108,776 SRC's chambered in 44 WCF caliber.  In all reality I think carrying these calculations out to the tenths of a percent is a gross misrepresentation of accuracy that I am in no way going to try to defend.  But that is what the numbers are.  Errors in the data collected and the variation in the production history of Winchester could cause a fair amount of "margin of error" in any surveyed results.  For instance, keep in mind that Winchester made 12,000 Model 1892 SRC's in 44 WCF for Britain and that my sampling and the misrepresentation of other calibers and configurations during this production time period will introduce error.  During 1914 and 1915 a total of 22,180 Model 1892's in all varieties were produced so the British (DCP stamped carbines) account for more than half of the production).  I have not attempted to adjust the extrapolations for this.

Michael

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March 19, 2019
12:23 am
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Seems hard to believe!  The frequency in which a .44 WCF SRC shows up suggests it's a rare bird indeed...not numbering in the six figures.  Folks just have to be holding onto these.

March 19, 2019
12:36 am
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mrcvs said
Seems hard to believe!  The frequency in which a .44 WCF SRC shows up suggests it's a rare bird indeed...not numbering in the six figures.  Folks just have to be holding onto these.  

Not at all.  I have seen more 44 WCF SRC's than 25-20's!  BUT I look EVERY day at LOTS of auctions and brokerage sites.  If you limit your search you will definitely have a different experience.

Michael

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March 19, 2019
1:04 am
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Big Larry said
Now, I believe that a very large majority of M92 carbines went to the movie industry. Beat to heck, and generally not taken care of. The 44-40 and the 38-40 used the 5 in one blanks, and I doubt the bores were ever cleaned. I have collected Winchesters in general since the late 60's and have always found the M92's in 44 to be elusive. both carbine and rifle. Also, when found in good shape, they were always out of my reach. I have 4 in my collection now, all 44's. 3 rifles and one carbine, and the carbine is the worst of the lot, and was very expensive.  Big Larry  

The movie industry can be hard on equipment.  Take old television show, "The Dukes of Hazard" and the General Lee (Dodge Charger).  If you watched the series, it looked like the General Lee made all those jumps just fine.  As it turns out, the jumps were real but during the run of the show, they wrecked about 300 Chargers. 

Cry

March 19, 2019
3:06 am
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If you’ll watch carefully most of the jumps were actually only a few different jumps filmed from many angles. You’ll also see some differences between the stunt cars and the closeup cars.

Back to the 1892’s I suspect a large percentage no longer exist. Most were used hard by cowboys, farmers, hunters, soldiers and yes, movie and TV casts and extras. Some were lost, exported, or destroyed, no small number were parted out. For most of their early existence they weren’t worth much and they were treated like tools because that’s all they were.

 

Mike

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March 19, 2019
11:01 am
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Mike wrote:

 Some were lost, exported, or destroyed, no small number were parted out. For most of their early existence they weren’t worth much and they were treated like tools because that’s all they were.

In an attempt to get a handle on "survivability" of the guns would would expect that when doing a survey that you would find that more newer rifles still exist than older ones.  I have my spread sheet sectioned off in increments of 10,000 serial numbers so that I can look at how many rifles are sampled per those intervals.  I am not going to calculate this for the entire 99 intervals of Model 1892/92 production but a quick look shows that from SN 1 - 10,000 I have 320 rifles listed.  From 10,000 - 20,000 another 211.  This is roughly the first two years of production.   Moving forward in time almost 30 years to the 860,000 - 870,000 range I have found 186 rifles and from 870,000 - 880,000 another 261.  That is 531 early guns versus 447 in the later interval.  Used and thrown away does not seem to have occurred in the manner of the oldest ones got used up more.   

I have LOTS of rifles samples from Australia and it is amazing the relatively poor condition and just how beat up so many of these rifles are.  These rifles have been used FAR beyond what I suspect most of us have ever encountered on a regular basis.   BUT, they are still around, and being bought, sold, and collected.  Keep in mind that yes, while these were tools, the replacement cost was relatively high to that cowboy, farmer, hunter, or soldier.  WE may live in a disposable world but 100 years ago that was absolutely not the view of people.

Michael

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March 19, 2019
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Fascinating numbers, Michael. My point was that these days these rifles are generally stored safely away by collectors who see them in a totally different light than past generations. Every time you post about your survey findings I can’t help but wonder about survival rates. I’ve spent time looking at relics in a couple of museums and it’s clear that some guns didn’t survive the conditions as well as others. I’ve noticed the same thing you have about the Australian rifles, some are even used on a regular basis in SASS matches. 

 

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March 19, 2019
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I had two .44-40 carbines from the James Bay Area of Northern Ontario which I bought in 1963-65 period when I worked for the Hudson's Bay Company. Both were used in the very harsh conditions of traplines by Indiginous people. Both were in shootable but otherwise poor condition from being left outside in winter. It was thought that to bring the guns inside after a day on the traplines would be worse because the condensation would rust the barrels.

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