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Production of .44-40 1892 carbines
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December 10, 2023 - 1:15 pm
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Bert H. said

[email protected] said

Before George Madis, we had nothing real on Winchesters.  All he had to work with was what the moron management left in the way of records. 

He told me that sometime between 1961 and 1970 Winchester “management” THREW OUT all of their shipping destination ledger records. 

Your first statement above is quite frankly as erroneous as the statistical information that George published.  It is the factory records (at the CFM) that positively tell us that George was grossly in error, and negligent in his research.  I invite you to diligently compare the information that George published in his books concerning the Model 1894 production versus the information that was published in the ARMAX Vol 5 (in 1995).  The information in the ARMAX Vol 5 survey was derived directly from the factory records that the so-called “moron management” had transferred to the Winchester Museum in New Haven (later was later donated and transferred to the Cody Firearm Museum).

The “story” he told you about “management” throwing out all of the shipping destination ledger records between 1961 and 1970 is also false.  Winchester intentionally burned (in their factory furnaces) nearly all of the missing records, and they did it well before 1961.  As of the passage and enactment of the GCA of 1968, no records could be tossed out or burned.

Bert – WACA Historian  

Thanks Bert for clearing up some of the “I also heard” erroneous statements.  There is SO MUCH of that regarding Winchesters and it does get tiresome having to constantly refute it.  People now days have to think about the fact that Winchester was in the business of selling rifles they were NOT in the business of warehousing stuff to feed the minds of “collectors” who, for the most part had not even been born yet at some time in the future.  Or maybe all of our parents should also be labeled morons because they did not keep every scrap of our childhood so that a person could recreate our previous history.  Furthermore, some people who think this way should be admonished that they did not keep every store receipt they ever had so that they could explain where they spent all of the money they ever earned.  A LOT of garages and basements would be filled with what might be viewed as useless junk that is not wanted or needed anymore.

It’s so easy to throw stones!

Michael

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December 10, 2023 - 1:20 pm
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victorio1sw said
Doesn’t Madis mention the number of SRC carbines in 44-40, in some form? 

I would like to post a picture of mine, but see no way to attach pictures. 

 

You have to be a member of WACA in order to post images.  If you send them to me along with the serial number so that I can add the rifle into my research I will gladly post the images for you.  [email protected]

Michael

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December 11, 2023 - 12:54 am
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Bert H. said

[email protected] said

Before George Madis, we had nothing real on Winchesters.  All he had to work with was what the moron management left in the way of records. 

He told me that sometime between 1961 and 1970 Winchester “management” THREW OUT all of their shipping destination ledger records. 

Your first statement above is quite frankly as erroneous as the statistical information that George published.  It is the factory records (at the CFM) that positively tell us that George was grossly in error, and negligent in his research.  I invite you to diligently compare the information that George published in his books concerning the Model 1894 production versus the information that was published in the ARMAX Vol 5 (in 1995).  The information in the ARMAX Vol 5 survey was derived directly from the factory records that the so-called “moron management” had transferred to the Winchester Museum in New Haven (later was later donated and transferred to the Cody Firearm Museum).

The “story” he told you about “management” throwing out all of the shipping destination ledger records between 1961 and 1970 is also false.  Winchester intentionally burned (in their factory furnaces) nearly all of the missing records, and they did it well before 1961.  As of the passage and enactment of the GCA of 1968, no records could be tossed out or burned.

Bert – WACA Historian

  

I just posted a nice article on a rare Winchester in the Colt Forum, as per the link below:

In the past I occasionally hear or see some unwarranted vicious attacks against George Madis.  He was a good friend, and he really turned the tide for Winchester collectors with his books in 1968 and 1971.  No other books of any merit came before that. 

As for American “Management” in general, from my own experiences in both the Aerospace and Oil & Gas Industries, I have seen lots of sorry management.  And as with Winchester, they tend to drag companies down into bankruptcy. 

After seeing the initial “greetings” here, I think that the $50 for a membership upgrade will go back in my pocket. 

 

https://www.coltforum.com/threads/a-factory-engraved-special-order-winchester-m1890-this-time-with-more-details.406952/#post-3589965

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December 11, 2023 - 8:29 pm
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In the past I occasionally hear or see some unwarranted vicious attacks against George Madis.  He was a good friend, and he really turned the tide for Winchester collectors with his books in 1968 and 1971.  No other books of any merit came before that.

I too have seen the comments, and I could not agree more . It is far too easy to attack someone when they have passed.

We as collectors owe George a lot. and he is well respected downunder.

George sighning my winchester book at the Sydney expo in 1986.

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December 11, 2023 - 8:59 pm
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Tony. R said
In the past I occasionally hear or see some unwarranted vicious attacks against George Madis.  He was a good friend, and he really turned the tide for Winchester collectors with his books in 1968 and 1971.  No other books of any merit came before that.

I too have seen the comments, and I could not agree more . It is far too easy to attack someone when they have passed.

We as collectors owe George a lot. and he is well respected downunder.

George sighning my winchester book at the Sydney expo in 1986.

IMG_20220117_0001_NEW-1.jpgImage Enlarger  

I will certainly agree that George provided information that wasn’t available at all prior to his efforts to document his findings.  But as time passes, and more information comes to light, it stands to reason that new information may support or weaken previous claims.

I especially like the recording of features in George’s books in the form of black and white photographs of various Winchesters, showing the vast array of features that were available.  Colour photographs would have been better, but black and white provided for an affordable volume.

The data of George’s that should be ignored—and this isn’t even arguable—are serial number tables and the rarity of features.  His serial number tables are off by several years in many cases.  Also, his discussion of the rarity of features is often exaggerated.  One that comes to mind is the 1886 carbine.  He claims one out of every 400 Winchester 1886s was a carbine.  It’s actually much closer to one in twenty.

Lastly, the photographs are informative, and one can learn a lot from them.  However, there was an 1886 rifle pictured in one of his books and I swore if it ever came up for sale, I would try and bid on it.  Sure enough, it came up for sale earlier this year, and quality photographs by the auction house clearly demonstrate some components have been refinished.  I didn’t even bid on it and the final hammer price demonstrated that others shared my concerns.

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December 12, 2023 - 1:36 am
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Tony. R said
In the past I occasionally hear or see some unwarranted vicious attacks against George Madis.  He was a good friend, and he really turned the tide for Winchester collectors with his books in 1968 and 1971.  No other books of any merit came before that.

I too have seen the comments, and I could not agree more . It is far too easy to attack someone when they have passed.

We as collectors owe George a lot. and he is well respected downunder.

George sighning my winchester book at the Sydney expo in 1986.

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Tony, 

Great photo, I to met George back in 1984 or 85 at the WACA east coast show in Allentown, PA and talked to him 30-60min, and he examined my first 86, that I got there. It was a standard 26″ rd. 45-70, with a nice shiny bore, but plumbing in color, nice untouched wood with a few dents. I haggled a price of 900, from a 1400 asking, George gave it the thumbs up! He told me to buy the best I could afford and that I did good. So I to have fond memories of that meeting!! Very nice man!

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December 12, 2023 - 2:16 am
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Like many here I’m a big fan of George Madis, most of his “critics” are actually fans, they’re just documenting the facts that he did not have access to or in some cases may have chosen to ignore. I’ll always be in awe of the many thousands of examples he was able to examine and will never have his eye for detail. I think it’s safe to say he brought many thousands of collectors into this affliction we know as Winchester collecting. 

 

Mike

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December 13, 2023 - 12:28 am
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George invited my wife and I for supper at least two times in 1970-71.  What an educational visit those were! 

Among the items of interest were:

He showed me how to make a square graver tool and engrave scrolls in steel.

He had a six station pantograph stock carver, as formerly used by the US Navy (he made and sold replacement stocks for a short while).

He had drawings as made by Mason of the proposed Winchester revolvers.  Tolerances were not used then, but on some parts it read “Be Particular”!

A set of special order sights, as kept as models for making copies at Winchester.

A Bowie knife as found in Mexico, marked “JB” (James Bowie?).

One of the first Colt SAA’s that was factory engraved, with a cut 5″ barrel. 

He gave me a set of monthly magazines that he published on antique guns for about two years.

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December 13, 2023 - 12:55 am
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I have had a dozen 44-40 Model 1892 SRC’s in the past, and several 38-40’s too. 

The one I have now is #816403, with a mirror bright bore and much blue on barrel.  Can’t add pictures here.

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December 13, 2023 - 2:59 am
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victorio1sw said
George invited my wife and I for supper at least two times in 1970-71.  What an educational visit those were! 

Among the items of interest were:

He showed me how to make a square graver tool and engrave scrolls in steel.

He had a six station pantograph stock carver, as formerly used by the US Navy (he made and sold replacement stocks for a short while).

He had drawings as made by Mason of the proposed Winchester revolvers.  Tolerances were not used then, but on some parts it read “Be Particular”!

A set of special order sights, as kept as models for making copies at Winchester.

A Bowie knife as found in Mexico, marked “JB” (James Bowie?).

One of the first Colt SAA’s that was factory engraved, with a cut 5″ barrel. 

He gave me a set of monthly magazines that he published on antique guns for about two years.

  

Great Story! He loved the Winchester addiction, and was a fine man.  

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December 13, 2023 - 2:25 pm
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victorio1sw said
I have had a dozen 44-40 Model 1892 SRC’s in the past, and several 38-40’s too. 

The one I have now is #816403, with a mirror bright bore and much blue on barrel.  Can’t add pictures here.

Here is your rifle when it was for sale at Mackey’s in 2013.

Michael

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December 13, 2023 - 8:48 pm
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Interesting.  I did not buy from Mackey’s, but got mine in 2015.  The walnut on mine is not shiny or refinished.  Mine has more blue on the barrel and mag tube than these pictures seem to show, so maybe these pictures were made in bad lighting.  Mine has a saddle ring and a tang plug screw.  But on mine, the front barrel band has been reversed — and put on backwards.  I have never yet switched that front band. 

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December 13, 2023 - 8:51 pm
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victorio1sw said
Interesting.  I did not buy from Mackey’s, but got mine in 2015.  The walnut on mine is not shiny or refinished.  Mine has a saddle ring and a tang plug screw.  But on mine, the front barrel band has been reversed — and put on backwards.  I have never yet switched that front band. 

  

If the wood is in fact walnut and not shiny as this rendition of the rifle then the wood is not original and the saddle ring and tang screw were added between 2013 and when you purchased the rifle.

Michael

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December 13, 2023 - 9:00 pm
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That doesn’t bother me.  Wood has no serial numbers.  The current wood fits well everywhere, and is PROUD to the metal – everywhere.  Also I THINK that the wood when Mackeys had it was Gum, and not Walnut.  So it is a better gun now!

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December 14, 2023 - 1:53 am
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I think that after 60 years of doing gunsmith work, I know what walnut looks like.  How many stocks have YOU carefully inletted to fit everywhere perfectly??  I have done many 1866’s, 1873’s, 1886’s, 1892’s, and 1894’s.  Yep, all WALNUT

And that doesn’t include all of the one-piece walnut grips made for the 1860 Army, 1851 Navy, 1872 Opentop Rimfire, and Colt SAA’s.

Then too — just how do you know that the Mackey stocks were originals?  They sure do not fit very well

Saddle ring and tang screw have no serial/assy number.  Who gives a damned if they have been replaced/upgraded?  Ever made a saddle ring?  I have, and have many partially finished right now

Ever made exact copies of the Win 1866 loading gate?  In 1973 I offered them in patina or fire blue finish — for $50.

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December 14, 2023 - 5:29 pm
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victorio1sw said
I think that after 60 years of doing gunsmith work, I know what walnut looks like.  How many stocks have YOU carefully inletted to fit everywhere perfectly??  I have done many 1866’s, 1873’s, 1886’s, 1892’s, and 1894’s.  Yep, all WALNUT

And that doesn’t include all of the one-piece walnut grips made for the 1860 Army, 1851 Navy, 1872 Opentop Rimfire, and Colt SAA’s.

Then too — just how do you know that the Mackey stocks were originals?  They sure do not fit very wel

Saddle ring and tang screw have no serial/assy number.  Who gives a damned if they have been replaced/upgraded?  Ever made a saddle ring?  I have, and have many partially finished right now

Ever made exact copies of the Win 1866 loading gate?  In 1973 I offered them in patina or fire blue finish — for $50.  

Gosh, all I did was state the obvious about the rifle.  I made no disparaging comments about it or you.

Michael

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December 16, 2023 - 10:51 pm
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Some more 44-40 M1892 SRC production that went to Canada.  Did you know about, or count, these?

 

https://www.coltforum.com/threads/went-in-for-a-cavalry-saa-left-with-a-canadian-navy-1894.407124/#lg=thread-407124&slide=2

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December 16, 2023 - 11:18 pm
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victorio1sw said
Some more 44-40 M1892 SRC production that went to Canada.  Did you know about, or count, these?

 

https://www.coltforum.com/threads/went-in-for-a-cavalry-saa-left-with-a-canadian-navy-1894.407124/#lg=thread-407124&slide=2

  

Yes, both Michael and I are very familiar with the Canadian inspected British Navy Winchesters (both the Model 1892 44 WCF Carbines and the Model 1894 30 WCF Carbines.  

Bert

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