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I, for one, am dubious. Quite dubious.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/80/24/roosevelts-african-safari-winchester-model-1886-rifle
Chuck said
Not dubious, just built in the style of. Don’t buy letters.
Chuck –
I have to agree. There is a nice enough rifle here, but the connection to Roosevelt is sheer speculation. Letters can be handy to use to hype something – but that’s all you end up with is just hype.
Surprised there’s no factory letter to go along with it, not that it would necessarily confirm or refute the Roosevelt connection. To many with this kind of money to spend, I suspect Wilson’s letter will be all the documentation they require to accept the story.
clarence said
Surprised there’s no factory letter to go along with it, not that it would necessarily confirm or refute the Roosevelt connection. To many with this kind of money to spend, I suspect Wilson’s letter will be all the documentation they require to accept the story.
It’s not in the serial number range where a letter would be available. I agree completely with your thought about those who will accept the Larry Wilson letter as all the documentation needed. How can you bid against those that are ill-informed? I learned a while ago: you don’t.
November 7, 2015
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Quite possible but no provenance other than consistencies with TR’s known tastes and Wilson’s opinion. While I have considerable respect for R L Wilson’s knowledge of the subject I have little use for his opinion in this situation.
Mike
steve004 said
How can you bid against those that are ill-informed? I learned a while ago: you don’t.
I began learning that lesson over 20 yrs ago when ebay came into my life. The amount of collectible stuff mis-described there by know-nothing sellers is prodigious, & equally prodigious is the gullibility of know-nothing buyers.
When did R.L. Wilson’s credibility get reinstated? “Let the buyer beware”! Roger B.
rogertherelic said
When did R.L. Wilson’s credibility get reinstated? “Let the buyer beware”! Roger B.
Excellent point.
November 7, 2015
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rogertherelic said
When did R.L. Wilson’s credibility get reinstated? “Let the buyer beware”! Roger B.
Credibility is gone. I think that’s a tragedy because he was very knowledgeable and articulate.
Mike
I have read “African Game Trails” and other Roosevelt books discussing his armaments taken to African on safari. He mentions his Model 1895 in .405 caliber, a mosel 1894 in .30 W.C.F., a 1903 Springfield and his Holland and Holland double rifle but I do not recall any mentiaon of an 1886. As George Madis always said, “Buy the rifle and not the story”!
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That is a very tough sale in my opinion. The gun can’t be lettered. I wonder if there would be anything to tie the rifle to Roosevelt in the Roosevelt library? But find that prospect doubtful.
I also wonder, was there not anyone else going to Africa in 1909? If the engraving is legit, what else would that imply?
The 15 pages from R.L.Wilson are purely speculative and don’t confirm anything. They also just merely tell a story that he’s woven to be plausible. But anyone can do that.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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Maverick said
The 15 pages from R.L.Wilson are purely speculative and don’t confirm anything. They also just merely tell a story that he’s woven to be plausible. But anyone can do that.
“Anyone” hasn’t written about 40 gun books, inc. one (which I hadn’t previously heard of) specifically about TR’s safari.
clarence said
“Anyone” hasn’t written about 40 gun books, inc. one (which I hadn’t previously heard of) specifically about TR’s safari.
That is true. But anyone can and do go to the federal prison for fraud.
Just saying.
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Rick Hill said
I have read “African Game Trails” and other Roosevelt books discussing his armaments taken to African on safari. He mentions his Model 1895 in .405 caliber, a mosel 1894 in .30 W.C.F., a 1903 Springfield and his Holland and Holland double rifle but I do not recall any mentiaon of an 1886. As George Madis always said, “Buy the rifle and not the story”!
I’m trying to recall his history with the M1886. I recall TR hunted quite a bit with his M1876 Winchester (.45/75?) and I also seem to recall he liked his Bullard .50/115 pretty well.
steve004 said
I’m trying to recall his history with the M1886. I recall TR hunted quite a bit with his M1876 Winchester (.45/75?) and I also seem to recall he liked his Bullard .50/115 pretty well.
True, but he had no sentimental attachment for using “old guns” for hunting, & upgraded his arsenal as quickly as better models became available. He kept himself fully informed of the progress of developing the .30-03, then the .30-06, so kept step with the latest ballistic improvements, inc. the spitzer bullets that the ’95 could handle, but none of the tubular mag models. Best argument for his not considering an ’86 is that it would have been totally redundant to his much superior ’95, & even an expedition as large & elaborate as his safari would have no room for unneeded baggage.
Maverick said
That is true. But anyone can and do go to the federal prison for fraud.
Yes, considering his talent & accomplishments, it’s sad his high-flying lifestyle brought him to that pass, but it’s almost an “occupational hazard” among the experts whose word & opinion can make a huge difference in value. Many big-time art dealers have succumbed to the same temptation of falsely attributing an unsigned painting or other art work in order to inflate its value.
clarence said
True, but he had no sentimental attachment for using “old guns” for hunting, & upgraded his arsenal as quickly as better models became available. He kept himself fully informed of the progress of developing the .30-03, then the .30-06, so kept step with the latest ballistic improvements, inc. the spitzer bullets that the ’95 could handle, but none of the tubular mag models. Best argument for his not considering an ’86 is that it would have been totally redundant to his much superior ’95, & even an expedition as large & elaborate as his safari would have no room for unneeded baggage.
Clarence –
I appreciate your thoughts and I agree. By the time 1909 came along, the .45-90 was hardly a new development. It’s nothing TR would have been excited about at that late date. Wilson even says in his letter: “It was TR’s practice to add new Winchester to his battery of arms as improved models were introduced…” It seems to me Wilson himself discredits his premise.
Stories are a dime a dozen. RL Wilson’s credibility died with him, actually before that. However, I don’t discredit his earlier material & contributions. Jmo
RickC
RickC said
Stories are a dime a dozen. RL Wilson’s credibility died with him, actually before that. However, I don’t discredit his earlier material & contributions. JmoRickC
Was just curious as what you define as his earlier material?
Sincerely,
Maverick
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