Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Model 1892 Acid Etched Receiver
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2298
Member Since:
March 20, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
January 11, 2019 - 2:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Good morning all,

Here is a quite nice deluxe takedown Model 1892 with an acid etched receiver.  George Madis was under the impression that this is original and he mentions a few other rifles and a shotgun which he had seen that were similarly done.  The letter does have the wrong SN on it.  Any thoughts?  Has anyone seen other examples of this sort of work that is attributable to Winchester?  Didn’t George Madis usually date his letters?

Michael

101160922_63837_CBD2C299C68E3E48.jpegImage Enlarger101160922_63837_D16C69ED61089CCE.jpegImage EnlargerScreenshot-2019-01-11-07.57.11.pngImage EnlargerScreenshot-2019-01-11-07.57.24.pngImage EnlargerScreenshot-2019-01-11-07.57.47.pngImage Enlarger

Signature-Pic.jpg

 

Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 521
Member Since:
February 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
January 11, 2019 - 5:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

i am definitely not an expert.  But in my mind i don’t think Winchester would do this.  Wouldn’t removing that much metal from the frame possibly make the frame weaker?  I don’t think Winchester would want that kind of liability.  Just my .02……

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4598
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
January 11, 2019 - 5:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I shy away from guns that have to have a letter to explain non factory modifications.  I don’t care who wrote the letter…

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1726
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
4
January 11, 2019 - 6:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

George Madis in his day was the expert.  He also got a lot wrong.  Using what we know now, I am 99% certain this acid etched engraving did not originate at the Winchester factory.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1582
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
January 11, 2019 - 9:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

In my opinion, typically if the serial number on George’s letter doesn’t match the gun, then George wasn’t writing about that gun, per say. Granted I could see how a 9 could have been written down as a 4. But the serial is mentioned in four places on the letter, so this seems odd.

Yes his letters are normally dated. Only thing that could explain why this one isn’t, it may have had an additional cover letter before it.

If would be nice to seen an example of the other etchings done on the models 90, 92, 94, & Model 12 shotgun to compare with it. 

I will add that George was engraver himself, and who better to look at it. Brings to mind the phrase, it takes one to know one!

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1096
Member Since:
December 21, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
January 12, 2019 - 1:46 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Factory or not , and I couldn’t give an opinion pro or con,that is a beautiful ’92 Nichael

W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.

Avatar
Oregon
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 478
Member Since:
September 29, 1993
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
January 12, 2019 - 9:23 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick:

In my experience, George almost never dated his letters unless so requested.  I’ve viewed lots of them and had George write them for me also…….

WACA Life Benefactor Member

NRA Life Member

Avatar
Montana
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 647
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
January 12, 2019 - 11:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

I have his last book “The Winchester Book 1 of 1000”.  He sent this to me after we spent a couple of days at Jim Gordon’s ranch in Grant, Colorado.  With the book, he also sent a cover letter.  Neither the book nor the letter are dated.  For anyone who knew him, he was the first to say “this is just my opinion” or “it’s impossible to be right about everything”.  A lot of new information has surfaced since he passed away, so I say, use what you can of the knowledge he left behind, but the final “guess” is up to us as collectors.  No matter what you say about George, he was the one who instilled in us, the wonders and history of the WINCHESTER.

PS,  I didn’t mention that this is a beautiful rifle, real or not.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4598
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
January 12, 2019 - 11:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick said
In my opinion, typically if the serial number on George’s letter doesn’t match the gun, then George wasn’t writing about that gun, per say. Granted I could see how a 9 could have been written down as a 4. But the serial is mentioned in four places on the letter, so this seems odd.

Yes his letters are normally dated. Only thing that could explain why this one isn’t, it may have had an additional cover letter before it.

If would be nice to seen an example of the other etchings done on the models 90, 92, 94, & Model 12 shotgun to compare with it. 

I will add that George was engraver himself, and who better to look at it. Brings to mind the phrase, it takes one to know one!

Sincerely,

Maverick  

Maverick, did I miss something?  What is the serial number of this gun?  Also, I have most all of George’s books and really appreciate what he has done for our sport.  Unfortunately I have seen these types of letters used to sell guns with problems.   Or the writer had some interest in the gun.  I am not accusing George. 

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5040
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
January 13, 2019 - 3:30 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Serial number in another GI pic of this rifle is 848793, all I can figure is that Mr. Madis wrote it down wrong in his notes as he was examining the gun as it appears he’s describing this rifle. We’ll probably never know for sure. This is the first I’ve heard or seen this type of embellishment, I think it’s quite attractive. 

Could this be one of those “never say never” situations?

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1582
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
January 13, 2019 - 9:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Rick Hill said
Maverick:

In my experience, George almost never dated his letters unless so requested.  I’ve viewed lots of them and had George write them for me also…….  

Rick,

On second thought for me state that they are “normally dated” is somewhat incorrect. I have seen a fair number of his letters dated, along with a fair number of cover letters, and envelopes as well. But after reflecting on it and looking at my records. Majority of the letters I’ve come across don’t have the date on them. I would also rely on your judgement on this specific topic. As I know you had closer dealings with George, and you’ve probably seen more of his letters than I have. 

 

I still find it odd the serial is different on the gun than the letter, but can see how a 9 could be transposed as a 4. Or see how George could make a simple writing error.

To me this gun is very interesting and to dismiss it out right. I think is somewhat of a mistake. I’d still like to see some more facts come to light. Especially like to see the “plates” of the model 12 that are at Cody. Or even if someone knows the current whereabouts of the Model 12 in California.

Being able to compare it to this rifle, maybe enlightening.

Some forget or don’t know George was in several legal cases a “Expert Witness” and had to testify in court as to why and how a particular gun had been faked. 

Now I don’t know if George ever had an “skin in the game” in regards to a particular gun. But I do believe is most assuredly was no R.L. Wilson.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Avatar
Montana
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 647
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
January 14, 2019 - 12:31 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Maverick, 

You are 100% correct in regards to George NOT being an R. L. Wilson.  I doubt that George had anything to gain by falsifying info he gave on certain guns, but we weren’t by his side when these opportunities arose, so we simply don’t know.  My opinion is, George knew his assessment of certain guns was only his opinion and the owners of said firearms, knew right up front that this was just his best educated guess.  Only the owners of the guns he evaluated know if he was being honest or just “doing them a favor”.  And, those guys would and will never say anything to the contrary.  He was, with any and all faults, a gentleman to be around.

Avatar
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4323
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
January 14, 2019 - 4:33 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I checked and I have 3 of his letters and they all have no dates.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 201
Member Since:
January 20, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
January 14, 2019 - 2:02 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Can someone please educate a new and/or younger collector as to the reputation or the incidents related of R. L. Wilson you all are referring?? All I know is he was an author of various books on Winchesters……

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 974
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
January 14, 2019 - 3:33 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Hi foxfire-

Larry Wilson spent some time in Federal prison for defrauding a client after pleading guilty to wire fraud.  The newspaper article below contains many of the rather sordid details:

https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-2006-03-26-0603260031-story.html

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 201
Member Since:
January 20, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
January 14, 2019 - 5:20 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Wow!!! Shocking stuff. Thanks for the education. 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1726
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
17
January 14, 2019 - 5:53 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

foxfire said
Wow!!! Shocking stuff. Thanks for the education.   

Exactly!  And yet folks continue to praise him and buy his books!

Why?

R L Wilson’s books are nothing more than coffee table books.  Very little scientific information, lots of pretty pictures, and, given his proclivities, any technical information is questionable.  If you had deep enough pockets, your gun could be in a publication and what you want it to say about it was almost a guarantee!  I’ve heard this from several sources.

To be honest with you, if I, or many of you, had rich friends with fancy guns, and a really good camera, we could easily have written books like those Wilson wrote.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5040
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
January 14, 2019 - 5:57 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Sad thing is, I believe he truly was an expert on the old Colts but he cashed in on his expertise to defraud others. 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4598
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
January 14, 2019 - 6:00 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  This stuff goes on all the time.  Buyer beware.

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 201
Member Since:
January 20, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
January 14, 2019 - 6:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Yeah, that’s why I’ve been tap-dancing around identifying any honest internet dealers – since generally I cant attend gun shows. I don’t mind paying a premium (slight :)) if the seller and provenance checks-out. I did a search here on Collectors Firearms – they seem legit. Anyone care to opine??

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: Burt Humphrey, Bert H., mrcvs, Erin Grivicich, Michael McMurray
Guest(s) 115
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6371
TXGunNut: 5040
Chuck: 4598
1873man: 4323
steve004: 4256
Big Larry: 2345
twobit: 2298
mrcvs: 1726
TR: 1724
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12764
Posts: 111195

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1766
Members: 8856
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation