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rogertherelic said
A note of interest: My MODEL 64 25-35 carbine has a roll mark in front of the front sight. “J. F. KREUZ AUSTIN TEX.” I was informed that because of the roll mark (stamping) the collector value is diminished greatly. RDB
Roger, the fool who told you that should be de-friended. Kreuz was a highly-regarded Texas gunsmith, & any gun passing through his hands should be regarded as something special. Since most late production guns have no documented “history,” at least you know something about this one. I wouldn’t go quite so far as to say his name adds value (though it very well might to a Texas collector), but certainly it does not detract. What say you, TXGunNut?
rogertherelic said
A note of interest: My MODEL 64 25-35 carbine has a roll mark in front of the front sight. “J. F. KREUZ AUSTIN TEX.” I was informed that because of the roll mark (stamping) the collector value is diminished greatly. RDB
Roger,
I disagree that the value is “diminished greatly”. While some collectors might not care for the added marking, it is not a significant detractor to the rifle. Like Clarence mentioned, it provides a small amount of history to the path it took to get where it is today.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
A couple of y’all guessed the correct website. I have not yet tried to contact him. Has only been a couple of days since I started this post. I think they are in their store Mon. Tues. and Fri. pm
rogertherelic said
A note of interest: My MODEL 64 25-35 carbine has a roll mark in front of the front sight. “J. F. KREUZ AUSTIN TEX.” I was informed that because of the roll mark (stamping) the collector value is diminished greatly. RDB
+3, wouldn’t bother me.
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Bert H. said
CJS57 said
Let’s go over what is necessary to make a plain 94 .32 into a model 64 25-35 carbine. It will need a complete lower receiver and lever. Also a new butt stock and forearm and barrel and magazine tube. So the only part remaining from the Model 94 is the upper receiver. It would be very difficult to locate all these parts to build a fake 64. So it must have been a once complete 64 with a defaced serial number or other damage. Then the “new” Model 94 receiver was added to the parts package. Need to see the proofs on the barrel and receiver for forensic matching.
Anyone else have a theory about how it was created?
Not a “theory”… instead Fact.
The fellow who created this Fake Model 64 is well known to me (and several other WACA members), and he is known to have “manufactured” dozens of Fake Winchesters in rare or very uncommon configurations. Many years ago it was said that he bought up a large batch of Winchester barrels and parts when Winchester began disposing of them (in the late 1960s). This Model 64 (and several others in calibers 32-40 and 38-55) suddenly appeared for sale about 13-14 years ago. A good friend of mine bought three of them (including this rifle), and then asked me for my assessment of them… all three were very high quality Fakes, but each one of them had small perceptible errors that can be detected by someone who knows what to look for. I personally had my hands on this gun (serial number) when it was still a Model 94 Carbine in caliber 32 W.S. (at the Big Reno show). The crook who altered it routinely trolled the isles at the Big Reno show looking for nice condition Model 94 Carbines (which at the time were relatively cheap to procure) to use for his “projects”.
Bert
Is this individual a member of the WACA? If so why?
He is not a WACA member.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, I agree that the gun is a fake and that is a Fact. My question about theory was on “how it was created”. Not the Fact that it is a fake. Methods could be making new parts or collecting original old parts. But now we know it was made of original factory parts. Please help us out and tell us the areas that you found that were factory wrong on visual inspection of the fake gun. Detecting fake guns is perhaps the main thing in collecting along with original finishes.
Unfortunately fakers read this and other forums to find ways to make their fakes perfect. Might be best to PM such details at least that is common practice on K98 forum as fakery runs rampant in Nazi marked items as well.
mike webb said
Unfortunately fakers read this and other forums to find ways to make their fakes perfect. Might be best to PM such details at least that is common practice on K98 forum as fakery runs rampant in Nazi marked items as well.
There are hundreds of fake WW I ’03 sniper-rifles for every original; one sold on Rock Island few yrs ago for big dough.
Now if a fake is TRULY perfect, one might ask “how would anyone know?”
CJS57 said
Bert, I agree that the gun is a fake and that is a Fact. My question about theory was on “how it was created”. Not the Fact that it is a fake. Methods could be making new parts or collecting original old parts. But now we know it was made of original factory parts. Please help us out and tell us the areas that you found that were factory wrong on visual inspection of the fake gun. Detecting fake guns is perhaps the main thing in collecting along with original finishes.
Just as Mike mentioned, the “Fake” perpetrators out there frequently troll this (and other) forums. I am not inclined to discuss this topic in great or specific detail for all of the crooks to read.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Online
clarence said
rogertherelic said
A note of interest: My MODEL 64 25-35 carbine has a roll mark in front of the front sight. “J. F. KREUZ AUSTIN TEX.” I was informed that because of the roll mark (stamping) the collector value is diminished greatly. RDB
Roger, the fool who told you that should be de-friended. Kreuz was a highly-regarded Texas gunsmith, & any gun passing through his hands should be regarded as something special. Since most late production guns have no documented “history,” at least you know something about this one. I wouldn’t go quite so far as to say his name adds value (though it very well might to a Texas collector), but certainly it does not detract. What say you, TXGunNut?
I’ve heard of Kreuz but have never seen a Winchester so stamped. I’d probably pay a little extra for it, just as I would for one with a “Browning Bros” stamp. Did Sheard stamp his guns? If so one so stamped wouldn’t hurt my feelings. I had a few custom guns built awhile back by Lou Williamson but he stamped his name on the inside,
To add to the original thread I just noticed that there were six members online and 85 “Guests”. A fair portion of those guests are likely to be lurkers and I wouldn’t be surprised if the person who caused this gun to be built is well aware of this site. He’s very knowledgeable but probably wouldn’t miss the chance to make his fakes better.
Mike
TXGunNut said I’ve heard of Kreuz but have never seen a Winchester so stamped. I’d probably pay a little extra for it, just as I would for one with a “Browning Bros” stamp. Did Sheard stamp his guns?
Evidence suggests Sheard stamped his name & add. on every gun he could lay his hands on. Which would have made me furious if one of them had been mine merely brought it for some repair! (Unless the work was done free in exchange for the free advertising.) I suspect the Kreuz-marked guns were those sold new out of his shop, but still, at the time, I wouldn’t have cared for it; but time changes one’s perspective. Browning Bros. marked guns are of course in a completely different category, because Browning himself was in a different category.
I have several single shots rebarreled by Ken Briesein, one of the most famous barrel makers of the ’70 & ’80s, but he did NOT mark his barrels & unfortunately for me, I have no proof he did the work.
I have had this supposed Mod. 64 25-35 carbine for 22 days and put about 60 cast handloads thru it. I posted it on this forum and got an education. I left a message on the dealers phone that I was concerned about it being authentic. He promptly returned my call. We both were polite. He said the transaction was too far out. It was past the three day inspection. He said maybe if it was within a week he would have done something. He said it was not represented as an original on Guns International but as a 64 25-35 carbine. He said the cache could show that. (I am not sure what that is. I asked about the possibility of getting money back and he responded there is nothing he could do. It is just to far out. I offered to buy it at as an altered gun at a reduced price but he wasn’t interested. I told him I still liked the gun just not the price. We said our goodbyes . No yelling or cussing. End of story………but since it is fake I can take pride in the fact it is a high quality fake made in America?and not off shore. It is pleasant to plink with.
November 7, 2015
Online
Hardhat-
Unfortunately expensive lessons seem to be part of collecting Winchesters, probably other firearms and collectibles as well. Sounds like your seller has had more than a few trips down this road and obviously there is nothing he will do for you. There’s a difference between can’t and won’t. A crook won’t make it right, a reputable dealer will at least try.
Mike
Hardhat DV2 said
I have had this supposed Mod. 64 25-35 carbine for 22 days and put about 60 cast handloads thru it. I posted it on this forum and got an education. I left a message on the dealers phone that I was concerned about it being authentic. He promptly returned my call. We both were polite. He said the transaction was too far out. It was past the three day inspection. He said maybe if it was within a week he would have done something. He said it was not represented as an original on Guns International but as a 64 25-35 carbine. He said the cache could show that. (I am not sure what that is. I asked about the possibility of getting money back and he responded there is nothing he could do. It is just to far out. I offered to buy it at as an altered gun at a reduced price but he wasn’t interested. I told him I still liked the gun just not the price. We said our goodbyes . No yelling or cussing. End of story………but since it is fake I can take pride in the fact it is a high quality fake made in America?and not off shore. It is pleasant to plink with.
Would you share which dealer sold this to you?
TXGunNut said There’s a difference between can’t and won’t.
“Can’t,” because there’s some law or other restriction that prohibits him from doing so??? I don’t think so. At the VERY least, he could adjust your price down to what he has in it, probably not much over half what you paid. No reason to believe he was aware of the crookery, because the gun may have passed though several hands before his, but when you set yourself up in this kind of specialized trade, the legal presumption is that you know what you’re doing. If I were that dealer, I’d be on the phone immediately with whomever sold it to me, trying to trace it back to the source of the fakery.
Hardhat DV2 said
I have had this supposed Mod. 64 25-35 carbine for 22 days He said it was not represented as an original on Guns International but as a 64 25-35 carbine. He said the cache could show that. (I am not sure what that is.
Interesting, he says the rifle was not represented as an original Model 64 carbine,but as a Model 64 carbine.Does not seem to be anything there to make one believe it was not an original .He does not say it is not an original.Seems to me to be a bit of not up front advertising to my way of thinking at best.
From what he states ,it would seem he knew it was a fake when he had it up for sale.
I am done whining about this gun. The money is gone but now that the college loan is for given by Mr. Biden things are looking up. Oh that’s right I didn’t go to college but to a trade school on the G.I. bill and got a job. Thanks to all opinions. I think my next post will be on a Mod. 42 . Maybe that will go better.?
Hardhat DV2 said
I am done whining about this gun. The money is gone but now that the college loan is for given by Mr. Biden things are looking up. Oh that’s right I didn’t go to college but to a trade school on the G.I. bill and got a job. Thanks to all opinions. I think my next post will be on a Mod. 42 . Maybe that will go better.?
Hardhat –
I find myself admiring your perspective on this rifle. A path that avoids having a stroke over something that doesn’t go right, is a good path. It also sounds like you are focusing on the positives – you’ve shot the gun, it shoots well and it is a fun piece. I’ve seen several 64 carbines with various alterations (e.g. reblued, sanded wood, extra tap holes) and this piece doesn’t look like any of them.
What is the problem with posting the seller’s name . I for one would sure like to know who these people are, Like the guy , James Neikirk, that got Me on a Colt. Is there a law in the U.S. prohibiting exposing crooks to the public?
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
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